The Hobby Jogger Podcast
Welcome to The Hobby Jogger Podcast, where elite athletes and ham-and-eggers lace up their stories. We explore the common ground that running creates from the world-class runner to the hobbyist hitting the pavement, trail or treadmill. Expect a blend of inspiration, laughter and the shared joy that makes every step count. Join us on this journey, where every run is a story worth sharing.
The Hobby Jogger Podcast
E71 | Breaking The Burning River 50 Mile Course Record
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Welcome And Record-Setting Guests
Casey KozaThank you for joining us for this episode of The Hobby Jogger. I am the co-host of Casey Coza, once again, joined by my good friend, Mr. Rob Myers. Rob, how is training for OCC going?
Rob MyersWell, if OCC is a 5K, I'm ready to go.
Casey KozaThat's good. You only got like uh 55 more K to get ready for in a few weeks. So yeah, things are looking up. Things are looking good. Perfect. Right on schedule. Let's go. Let's go. This week we are joined by one repeat guest and one new guest. Uh, we are joined by the fresh record holders at the Burning River 50 mile race, Mr. Caleb Bowen and Holly Ann Swan. How are you two doing? Straight out of Marshal U.
SPEAKER_03Doing well. Doing really well. We just finished up with a uh run club uh here in Huntington where it thunderstormed the entire time. So I'm still like dripping with sweat and a little bit of rain. Uh I just threw on a hoodie just to kind of drive a little bit, but doing well. Nice. Holly Ann.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, we're we're making our way back. I um had a little bit of an aggravated calf and peronial tendon, but I think we're we're cresting out of that. Um, but yeah, like Caleb said, looked a little crazy because of the thunderstorm, but we're here.
Casey KozaNice, nice. Yeah, your second time winning the race, Caleb. Your first time coming up here to uh to run Burning River. So uh Holly Ann, you took 13 minutes off what I feel was a little bit tougher course um this time at the Burning River. So yeah, you have the first and second female record, correct?
SPEAKER_00Yes. Um and I I agree, like it's kind of hard to compare years. Um one, um I ran a little bit like about a mile extra this time too, um, because I had a little deviation early on. Um, but on the flip side, I do feel like two years ago um with the 715, it was a little bit hotter. Um so I feel like we had that to our advantage this year. Um, I wouldn't say the weather was good by any means, but it was definitely more mild as far as like the summer heat goes.
Casey KozaI don't know. I was pretty hot out there. Definitely hot out there. So I yeah, I I don't remember two years ago. I can't say I just know that one course correction. So you did get a little off course uh early in the race. That's unfortunate. Uh it does happen in trail running 50 miles, kind of a long way to go, I guess. So uh where did you know where you took the wrong turn at?
SPEAKER_00Um so um there in the beginning, you either do like just a few miles on the road, you pop into a trail for just a very short period of time, back on the road, very small trail back on the road. It was like that second short trail section. There's a sharp left, and it was still pitch black outside. And um I was chatting with the two guys I was running with, and we just blew right past that sharp left um and climbed all the way to the top of the hill before we realized. But um, but yeah, I thought it was pretty comical because literally on the starting line, Caleb was like, Is it is this well marked? And I was like, Oh yeah, yeah, you won't get lost, there's no way. And then I got lost in the first few miles.
Casey KozaYeah, yeah. Caleb, good job, good reading, you know, yeah, well marked, well marked. Uh I mean, I've got lost on a loop course before where it was my second time around. So I yeah,
The Early Wrong Turn Story
Casey Kozayeah, nothing to take directions from for sure. Um and and Holly Ann, I wanted to just so our listeners know, you are a former runner for Marshall um under Caleb, correct?
SPEAKER_00Yes. Um so I only um had a year of eligibility left that I ran at Marshall. But um, so I did four years of undergrad in Alabama, uh, just cross country. And so I had my fifth year of uh both my indoor and outdoor track. Um so I came to Marshall and got my master's and ran um tracking field for Marshall.
Casey KozaGot it. Okay, so yeah, you are our third Marshall uh alum uh on the on the show here. So yeah, we do well with the Marshall folk, it seems, Rob. I wonder why. You must have a connection. Yeah, it must have a connection there to the program somehow.
SPEAKER_00I would I would say we obviously have a a good uh coach to look up to.
Casey KozaI would I would I would definitely uh agree with that. And uh for our listeners that are that are new to you, Holly Ann, how did you get involved in trail running? Was it due to Caleb? Was he the influence uh that brought you over to the ultra scene?
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, um I like I always saw his uh trail running feats and knew that he did trail races like back when I was an athlete. Um but actually it was another friend of ours. Um Caleb was there on the run that kind of like sparked it all. Um but basically after I finished my college eligibility, I got into marathoning and I did that for several years. Um I was really like focused and honed in on trying to get an Olympic trials qualifier, which was uh sub-245 at that time. And then um when COVID hit, there wasn't any marathon races, and we had a close friend of ours, um Dan Crow, who average trail runner, um, invited us out to a trail run, and it like really sparked my um passion for trail running at the time. And I started getting more into it and daydreaming about the trail running world and racing.
Casey KozaNice. Yeah, good daydream to have, I think. Yes, no but no better place. And and and you guys down in West Virginia certainly have a good trail running crowd there, especially in Huntington. I know uh, you know, I follow all of you, um, Caleb, uh, your friend in Holly Ann, obviously, Ryan Ramsby down there. Uh, you know, another good influence down there in the in the Huntington trail running scene.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, and uh Ryan's been great. The cool thing about Ryan is like he started his trail running career several years ago, um, before we we really connected, like we knew each other and we had you know gone to high school not too far from each other, but like he started getting the trail running around the same time I did, and he explored a lot of the bigger races. You know, he did Black Canyon, he did Bandera, he did you know Grayson Highlands, which isn't exactly that far away, but like he got to experience some of these cool races and then like was able to impart some wisdom as we got closer together. And then obviously with Gang Green, Alex Minor, Logan Kirby, Jack, you know, a lot of the guys in our area kind of sorry, trained together off of just because we were bored running by ourselves, uh so it was just like a natural connection, and it was just really cool to see how different parts of trail running, you know, like Gang Green going off and doing Coca-Dona. He actually was inspired by Ryan Ransby running uh Kokodona the year before. Um, you know, it's just cool to kind of play off each other. And then I will say like
Why West Virginia Trails Hit Different
SPEAKER_03Holly Ann's been that way with the females in our area too. Uh not there's not as many that are in the trail world, but it's really cool to see some kind of start getting in involved, like Dan Green's fiance, Sidney Smith, uh one of our former or former school record holders, Leslie Starnes. You know, we have a decent little crew that's beginning to build here in Huntington as well on the female side. So super cool time to be in Huntington right now.
Casey KozaNice. Rob, Rob, make sure you write some of those names down for for future episodes, please. Good thing I'm recording this. Yeah, good thing we are recording this.
Rob MyersYeah, we we remember West Virginia is like the best kept secret. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't get a lot of hate, people just don't talk about it in the trail running world. And we've had a few guests on that we'll talk about West Virginia. I'll bring up Highland Sky as my favorite race of all time, and they're just blown away by it. Like they don't know what to think. Like West Virginia trail running. I know there's a mountain there, but it's a lot smaller than the mountains out west and the Rockies and Leadville and et cetera, et cetera. But West Virginia is just so beautiful, man. It's so fun to run. And people just don't realize it. You know, they're always heading west.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, it's a it's a good secret to have. Uh, we have some beautiful trails here. Um, a lot of people just associate West Virginia with all the negativity, like poverty, opioid addiction, and you know, coal mines going out of business and stuff, but like some of the cooler parts of our state are just the running aspects. You know, Fayetteville, you know, the the entryway to the New River Gorge wasn't really a running destination until Rim to River came about. And you've seen like what that's done. You know, Rim to River is now several different races. They have a hundred mile, 100k, and 50k. But like people go to run the trails now. It's not just a mountain biking destination or a whitewater rafting, it's a place where people go to get some miles in. And I've actually met several friends uh through just going out to the gorge, you know, picking up some miles with people. So really cool to see that, uh, especially in that that area. Um, but Huntington as well. Huntington's not known for our trail running, like in terms of the actual trails. You know, we have Barber's Old Park and Beach Fork, and that's really about it. But I think, and I think a lot of people agree in other places as well. It's not necessarily the trails that bring people together, like the go cool places, it's the people that you meet, you know, the people or why you do what you do. And I think Huntington's got some good people.
Casey KozaYeah, yeah, for sure. And and just to build on that a little bit, I went down and ran the uh the Con, what is it, the Kanawa Trace Trail?
SPEAKER_03The Kanawa Trace Trail.
Casey KozaCanawa, yeah, Conwa Trace Trail. Uh Holly Ann was was at the start line with me. What what you run the 10K or 5k Holly Ann?
SPEAKER_00Um I I've done all the distances for that race. Um, trying to remember which year that was. 2023, because that was that would have been the 10K, I believe.
Casey Koza10k, yeah. I think you had just had your first child, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Two two months postpartum. Yeah.
Casey KozaYeah. Because I saw you for about six seconds and in just a cool race. Like they they take in a school bus and they drop you off in this neighborhood at 4 a.m. Yeah. And you're just like standing in this neighborhood, like, oh, this is this is really cool. Some guy just stands up front, it's like, all right, go, and then you're off. And uh yeah, it was really it was a really cool trail. I did catch Caleb walking that day in the 50k. We passed each other, so yeah, you got me walking. Uh but oh, yeah, you can't really run that section though. Like a lot of sections you can't run, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, Batman's misery is almost impossible to run. It's like a cliffside.
Casey KozaYeah, yeah. Uh but a really cool trail race where they fed me the night before. Uh, they had a cool little dinner at the I think that was a Boy Scout camp we were at, correct? Yeah. So it was like you got dinner the night before, camped out in just a really cool trail running event. Uh, awesome start line. I think like a couple neighbors might have been out on their porch like watching or something. But yeah, I saw Holly Ann for a good six seconds there at the start, and then she was gone, never saw her again. So uh yeah, good time down there in West Virginia uh for for that for for that race. And hopefully I'll learn how to pronounce it here sometime soon, Rob.
Rob MyersYou need to run Highland Sky next year. Oh, canal.
Casey KozaI got hurrican, right? It's Hurricane, right? No? Wait, it's not hurricane.
SPEAKER_03If you're really West Virginia, you say canal.
Casey KozaHurricane. Canal canal county. They were actually a customer. Uh Hurricane Electric was a customer of mine, too. Yeah. Oh, geez. No wonder they always looked at me weird. Yeah, all right, write that down. Yeah, all right. I see I'm I'm doing better on the pronunciation, I think, Rob. Better.
Rob MyersI think we're close to 50-50 for this episode.
Casey KozaYeah, for this episode. Yeah. My geography is getting better too. So yeah, you guys have a really strong uh trail running community. Um, you know, I know uh man, now I gotta say the name again. Her Hurricon. Is that it?
Kanawha Trace And Hurricane 100K Hype
Casey KozaClose enough. Yes, you know what I mean. It's a town in West Virginia, it looks like Hurricane, but it's not. So yeah, that's another big race that that you guys have. And I believe Pollyanna, you you're registered for the 100k, correct?
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's the that's the plan. That's the the next big big goal.
Casey KozaNice, nice. Um, and that I I don't know much about that race. Who puts that race on down there in West Virginia? Is it associated with some other races?
SPEAKER_00Um, so Matt Young um puts that race on. He has done so much for the trawrenning community, for the hurricane community in general. And uh he's put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into uh building that race into the incredible race that it is.
Casey KozaYeah, uh sold out, correct? And and gives a prize purse, I believe.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it gives a pretty fantastic prize purse um as far as like the individual races go. I believe it's um 2500, 1500, and a thousand. Correct me if I'm wrong, Caleb Atheno, um, for first, second, and third. And then there's like an additional 1,500 bonus if you get the course record, I believe. So pretty big prosperous. Definitely encourage anyone, especially people um who aren't from West Virginia, it's a fantastic opportunity to come see the beautiful Charles and area that we have here.
Casey KozaYeah, I mean 2,500, that's way more than some really big races offer, which is zero. So I guess you know, not a whole lot to step over in that regard. But yeah, that's awesome. And and for uh I mean, I'm gonna say it again, hurricane. Right?
SPEAKER_00That's closer.
Casey KozaYeah, it's closer. Yeah. Um, but for a little place in you know, West Virginia, that's that's awesome. And yeah, best of luck to to that Holly Ann for sure. I mean, that's pretty cool. Are you running that as well, Caleb?
SPEAKER_03So yeah, I'm registered right now. Um, like I I think I told you at uh the in the Burning River, I'm kind of going in between Grindstone and Hurricane because they are on the same day. And there's awesome things about both. So like for Hurricane, it is my hometown. That's where I grew up. Went to school high school there and everything. So I have a special connection. And like Matt Young is a great friend. Um, he's actually a good friend with the Trace 50K race director as well. So we went out to Western together last year to support one of our good friends, John Baldwin. Um, great guy, and he pours his heart and soul into this race. Um, obviously he solicits all the money to go to the prize purse, but even the like the aid stations. There's only two, but man, you've never seen a better aid station than what they have there. Um, they literally have everything you can think of. They have people playing banjos and having uh different activities for kids. They want it to be like a family event in the bowl, like where the uh start-finish line is. And it's just really cool. They have you know a guy that brings in reptiles and snakes to show kids.
SPEAKER_00Um, they have a son of yoga, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yoga, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, they have like an ice cream truck at one point too. Yeah, he's got events all day long. It's pretty pretty sick.
Casey KozaIt sounds like a much better put-together event than the grindstone, I'd say, Rob.
Rob Myers100%.
Casey KozaThey they gave me uh what did I get at like a hot dog or something at the end of that?
Rob MyersI was like, $10 corn dog.
Casey KozaUpgraded the hot dog. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, $10 corn dog. Like, oh thanks, appreciate that. It's good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And also, like, he like for the people that he like tries to bring in. So he tries to bring in some pretty competitive people because he wants it to be a really good race. So he puts them up in hotel rooms and has a dinner for them, and like it's just a really cool event. And no matter if you're elite or not elite, like you feel like you're taken care of. Now, I will say the trails are mountain biking trails. They were built during COVID, 2020, when things weren't happening. There's a group of people in Hurricane that really wanted to uh pour into the community, so they built mountain biking trails. So they aren't exactly the most fun to run all the time, just because it's undulating up and down the whole time. It it's not like I would say very difficult, but whenever you're doing loops, it could it can wear and tear on you just because you're just so tired of doing the same thing over and over again. But that also adds like a pretty cool aspect to it. And I thought last year it prepared me for Havelena really well because it was definitely more elevation gain than Havilina, but it definitely tested the the brain getting used to just doing the same thing over and over again and figuring out issues and being able to overcome this.
Casey KozaYeah, that would be very similar to Havelina's, which is multiple loops, what 20 mile loops, I think, at Havelena, right? Yeah, so so very uh yeah, probably very similar. Uh but yeah, awesome to hear about that. Um you know, I I was looking for something longer to do. Um probably not gonna go back to the corndog event, I don't think, Rob. No, I'm done. I'm still pretty yeah, that's you know, I hate to gripe. I know race directors have a tough, tall task, but when you can only get a corndog food vendor at the finish line, I I don't know. I just yeah.
Rob MyersThat bar is so high. It's a UTMB race when you have a corndog that you have to pay ten dollars for.
Casey KozaYeah, there there's a reason I call UTMB the Walmart of of Ultra Running.
SPEAKER_00Are are you talking about Grindstone?
Casey KozaYeah, yes.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. I don't I'm also like don't want to graph as well, but I think like the year that Caleb got his golden ticket, there was like literally one person cheering at the finish salon, which I know that was the first year they had golden tickets, but we're like, seriously, like this is a huge deal, gospel.
Casey KozaYeah, it was probably Annie. That was probably it. Like it was probably just her at the finish. Yeah, yeah. That was it. So yeah, I it's just yeah, it's it's it's well, I mean, and I get it. If you want that to be your goal to go over and run in France, Switzerland, whatever, cool, like great, but yeah, just Walmart, you know, it's Walmart.
Rob MyersI don't like Walmart, but I have to go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Also the area's beautiful, the trails are beautiful. Um for sure.
Casey KozaYeah.
SPEAKER_00I suppose if the corndog is what you uh are eyeing at the finish line.
Casey KozaYeah, I would have taken like anything other like a I don't know. It wasn't gonna be tough to to really do something good, but a corndog was like, come on, that's the last thing I want is a corndog. I don't even eat corndogs. They won that day.
Rob MyersIt was actually for for a race that cost what 300 bucks, something like that, 280? I don't know, I don't remember what it was, but probably more.
Casey KozaYeah, I mean not to go off on a uh here, but the corn dog wasn't even free. Like it was I had to pay the $12 for the corndog.
Rob MyersYou know, it was like $14.
Casey KozaAgain, not complaining, I get it. Race directors have a tough time, but it's great to hear that her Hurricon has an excellent you know setup and well taken care of, much like uh West Virginia Trailfest was. Shout out to the West Virginia Trailfest um team. They do it, they do a tremendous job there. You can actually get a beer on course, which is pretty sweet too. I didn't make it that far because it was like snowing in May and I just got cold and my uh Airbnb was right there. So I was like, yeah, I can go get a beer now. I'm done. That's good. That's we've done enough today. Peace. So yeah, awesome. Um, but let's move on to the Burning River uh 50 mile race. Um we'll start with you, Holly Ann.
Why Burning River Fit Their Year
Casey KozaWhat made you want to come back to Burning River?
SPEAKER_00Um, well, first off, the the whole trail setup is like perfect for like my strengths in general. I love trail racing, but I still like have that road speed background. And I feel like it's the perfect mixture of both, where you're like you're on the road and you're on the trails and you pop back out, and I absolutely love that. Um such a beautiful race. Um, but as far as like timing goes, um I am just over a year postpartum, and I'm finally like feeling like I'm at the point where I'm starting to build back into like feeling like myself again. Um and so I kind of started with um actually I guess I've done a couple of Ohio races this summer. Um I started with Thunder Bunny and Um, that was kind of like my introduction back into trail running. Um, and then I worked my way up to um um West Virginia trail running festival 50K. Uh that one is in Fayetteville. Um that was in June. And then um kept training and worked my way up to the 50 miler. Um so I just kind of like stair stepped, but I feel like it came at a a perfect timing postpartum and with my my race build as well.
Casey KozaYeah, and and to take again we had mentioned take time off. Not perfect conditions. It was it was pretty humid. It was a humid day. I know I got to like mile two and I was drenched and I was like, shit, I did not bring enough. This is not good. Uh yeah, yeah. So it was it was surprisingly humid, but you two running down there in Huntington are probably pretty used to high dew points and high humidities, I imagine.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah. It's it's usually pretty humid here.
Casey KozaYeah, very similar to up here. Now, Caleb, what made you choose uh coming up to Burning River for the 50 mile race?
SPEAKER_03Oh, so you know, just try and plan out the year. I was really struggling with finding races, you know, that I want to do that also worked with my schedule. Uh track season, where being a collegiate coach is really tough because we're currently traveling every week in the indoor and outdoor seasons. So from like December all the way through May, like late May, is just every week. So, you know, I signed up for Highland Sky 40 mile just because that's that's one of my favorites. And I was looking for something to do later in the summer, and trying to figure out what fall races I want to do has been difficult as well, um, because I did enter some lotteries and didn't get anything out of the lotteries. So it was oh it's over three. Um and so just trying to figure out what I want to do, and I saw this race that was you know 50 miles. Um and kind of like Holly Ann said, like we have a road running background, but we do trail run. So this was a perfect little combination of both. Um and I I remember watching her, not really watching, but watching from afar, her race in 2024, and I thought that'd be something that I thought I could do pretty well, and uh seeing Jeremy Pope do so well at this race as well. I mean, it just seemed like it's been one on my bucket list for a while now. Um but then I had to decide do I want to do the 50 or the 100? And really I was wanting to do the hundred mile, but my job once again kind of helped make that decision because I had a head coach's retreat the next day on Sunday, and I had to get back. So in order for me to not be totally dead or potentially have to miss something because something went wrong, I decided to go with the safe option with the 50. Uh, because 50 miles is a long race, but it's also one where you can finish up within a day and have a good night's sleep and then be able to do stuff the next day. So 50 miles was the safe option. It was actually I I remember two miles from the finish line. I was thinking, I'm so glad I picked the 50 because I do not want to have to turn around and come right back. So it was it was a good day, fun, fun race.
Casey KozaAnd a tough way to finish a 50 mile race. You get I don't know how far, I'm gonna say five and a half, six miles on just black top tarmac that is sweltering in the Ohio sun. So yeah, definitely a difficult way to to finish a 50-mile race or getting to the turnaround of a hundred mile race. I did get picked up at the end there by the leader of the hundred-mile race. So I did not hit my A goal of not getting past by a hundred mile or up.
SPEAKER_03Oh shoot. Well, that kid was cooking there at the beginning, so he he was rolling at that point.
Casey KozaYeah, he was still uh he was still looking pretty good when he went by me uh on the on the what is that, the hiking bike? Yeah, the hiking bike trail there. So yeah, he was uh he was moving. I I will say in the um the the local running chat, I did have you pick for first, Caleb, and I did have you pick for second, Holly Ann. Um yeah, so I I I missed a little. You were you were third overall. Uh yeah, Matt Parker, former guest of the show, took second. I thought you'd get Matt there at the end.
SPEAKER_00Um if we if we had some more black talk, maybe.
Casey KozaYeah.
SPEAKER_00He was still a good bit away. Yeah, yeah.
Casey KozaMatt can definitely go. Uh he's he's a pretty quick guy. Uh yeah, Dr. Matt Parker now. So yeah, must mention that. Yeah, now now uh physical therapist. Yeah.
Rob MyersCaleb, did you hit the CR? Yeah. I didn't realize it. Wow, I'm looking at the stats. You brushed that.
Casey KozaDid you not listen to the introduction, Rob?
Rob MyersA lot. Oh, I'm constantly doing the research while you're doing the introduction. Thank you for that.
Casey KozaYeah. Yeah. Both are now uh well Holly Ann was the previous record holder, now lowered her uh I heard that part, but geez, let's highlight these times, right?
Rob MyersSo the old was 63505, and Caleb comes in, does his thing, and sets a 606.07. That's just that's wild, man. Congrats.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. The cool thing about that, I mean, so my goal was to break six hours, but you know how every register you have to put in a like estimated time of finish. I didn't want to be that guy that like say, oh, I'm gonna break six hours. So I put six oh six down just because I thought that was a realistic goal. And then sure enough, as I was coming towards the finish, I was like, wait a minute, I'm gonna get really close to 606. And sure enough, it's like 606.07. So as close as we can get. I'm I'm pretty good figuring out what my fit as subtle is, I think.
Rob MyersDown to the second. Oh, that's crazy.
Casey KozaYeah, uh yeah, terrific day for for both of you. Was definitely not surprised by either outcome. Uh anytime there's a race happening, and I have my friends from West Virginia, that's who I'm rooting for. You know, locals be damned, but yeah, West Virginia is is who I root for. Um so I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah. Now, I guess Caleb, was there anything about the course
Course Reality Check And Race Execution
Casey Kozathat surprised you? Because it is there is challenging trail sections of the course going through the Cuyahoga Valley National Park, um, which is in my backyard here. Uh, it's where I run daily, um, which is some of the course. Um, was there anything that surprised you? Because uh you've run one flat race in Ohio before, but never a trail race in Ohio. Uh and I know talking to, you know, every year we go to the finish line of Burning River and talk to out of towners, and oh man, I couldn't believe it was that hilly. Like uh we thought it was gonna be a flat. Like you could have looked at the course map and saw that it wasn't. But was there anything that surprised you about the course?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I was pretty prepared for it. So I got some good intel from Holly and from where she ran 24. I talked to Jeremy about some of the parts that surprised him. Um, I will say, like, the hills very are they're super close to like what we have here in Huntington. So about the same height and length and steepness. I will say the thing that I didn't like the most was like how some of the steeper hills had like the stairs built into them. I would much rather not have that just because I'd rather run up a hill rather than trying to hop on the stairs uh or going down as well. Uh that was annoying and it kind of like just threw you off a little bit. Um but no, it I thought the trails were really runnable, and I th that would that's what I like. I don't like super, super technical stuff. Um but we'll it's also a little bit dangerous because where you're able to run, sometimes you collapse a little bit and a toe hits a rock, and then all of a sudden you're on the ground. Uh that did happen once, and I was super mad because I wore a white shirt and I was hoping to have a white shirt at the end of the race, but it was brown, uh, both front and back from that role. So bloody knees kind of was doing my best impression of Tara Dower at the end with the bloody knees, but that's a trail race, and that's what makes it fun. So yeah, yeah.
Casey KozaUh yeah, and it's yeah. I I'm with you though. I don't want to be, which I do, uh, you know, the super Rocky. You have to watch every step, every downhill is trying to kill you type race. I get it. Uh what you know, because we do talk about gear here. What shoes did you wear? Uh because it's I
Shoe Picks For Road Plus Trail
Casey Kozait's kind of a tough one. Like it's there's a lot of road sections, towpath, the tarmac at the end, but there's also some like kind of tough trails in there. What kind of shoes, what shoes did you wear for the Burning River?
SPEAKER_03You want to start Holly Ann?
Casey KozaUh we'll start with you, then we'll go to Holly Ann.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Um, so I wore the uh OnCloud Ultra Pros.
Casey KozaI also know what Holly Ann wore, so yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So it was in between those and the uh Mountain Coast H1s, and I just I figured the carbon plate and the uh OnClouds were would would help. And I was glad I made that choice because I thought they did. Uh haven't worn those since Havelena, so kind of forgot how what they felt like, but they felt really good. Uh I love that shoe.
Casey KozaIt's probably my favorite shoe. Nice. Yeah, I I I got a pair of them uh when I crewed Western States, they were yeah, they were pretty sweet. Uh yeah, awesome shoe. Uh on to Holly Ann. I I I know that I know the brand. I don't know which shoe you wore, um, which is why I saved you for a second because I'd like to hear about it a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah. Um probably a good thing. I feel like I could talk about my shoes forever. Um, but I've been with Speedland since basically 2021. Kind of the the backstory to that was my very first trailer race ever, um, which I don't recommend. I went straight to Hunter Mahler. Smart, smart.
Casey KozaWe like that here. We like it, we like it when people do that.
SPEAKER_00But um, I had the hardest time ever um finding uh a trail shoe. Um there's a documentary that um if no one's ever watched it before, it's called Into the Well that is about mine and Caleb's first hunter ball race. And there's some close-up of my very nasty feet. Um I basically had blisters on every corner of every toe all the way down. Um, so yes, I had a very hard time finding a try-onning shoe. Um, but I ended up getting connected with Steve Land in 2021, and um that's been a lab saver, and um I've I'm not sure. I think there might be uh like one line of their shoes that I haven't tried yet. I know there's a a new pair of boots um that I haven't yet to try theirs as well. Um hacking boots. Um, but basically um there's a new RX line of shoes. Um there's uh a combo with ska scar that they've done recently and a Leadville um version. And so for this race, I went with the RX Leadville. Um my favorite color is orange, and these are like the most beautiful yellow orange shoes. They're um like the perfect mix of firm and springy, and uh felt like I was flying in them the entire time.
Casey KozaNice, and in a little bit of a different lockdown, they don't use a traditional lace, correct?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Um so like some of their shoes have the two boas, so like it locks your foot in place, which is honestly like what has saved me all of these years, because I kind of have a little bit of a narrower foot, and so the boa like locks my foot in place so that my foot isn't sliding and rubbing. Um, but um, with this specific one, they did like kind of a dull one boa with the Velcro. Um, and I really like the way that these fit and feel.
Casey KozaSweet, yeah. I'm looking at them now. Those are those are pretty sweet.
SPEAKER_00And I know you gotta check them out, Casey.
Casey KozaYeah, the uh the Speedland RX L DVL, so short for Leadville. Um I'm I'm guessing uh pretty good on like the technical portions, Holly Ann.
SPEAKER_00Honestly, I I thought they were fantastic. I have no complaints. Well, I haven't had an issue with any of their lines of shoes, and they've like done a lot of major updates, so like that's incredible because my feet are very sensitive. Um, but these specifically I feel like are a little more firmer than what they um are are used to dealing with. But yeah, the the lugs were great with technical. Um felt like I had a lot of stability uh with these trolls.
Casey KozaNice, yeah. And you've been with them for quite some time. I know uh what did they have? It was the oh Speedland PGH shoe, I believe. Yeah, because uh Pittsburgh, it turns out they weren't named after Pittsburgh, Rob. Um it was something completely? Yeah, I thought they were. I actually almost bought them because I was like, oh, PGH, that's yeah, my hometown. That's pretty sweet. Turns out not from Pittsburgh. Um, but yeah, they have a they have a quite the lineup of shoes, and you've been running in them for for quite some time. So yeah, that's awesome, Holly Ann. And I knew, yeah, I knew you'd want to talk about the the shoe a little bit for sure. Um, it does look like it would be like the ultimate Burning River kind of a mix uh trail shoe. I am looking for a shoe to go over to to OCC with. Maybe I should check out the the Leadville shoe, Holly Ann, what do you think?
SPEAKER_00I think so too. Um that one I feel like is a little more for the the like speed side of things. Cause like I said, I felt I felt like I was springy and flying in that one. Um I'm not sure that I would push it more than like probably 50 to 100k distance. Um, but honestly, like one of my favorite shoes ever is um the TMT. It's more of a recent one. Um it's the one that's got like the really, really cool tree design on the outside. It's got the six millimeter lugs and it is like it checks all the boxes for cushion, um, technical, distance, like I love that shoe.
Casey KozaYeah, yeah, that's awesome. I'm I like I do like it, and it is like it's in yellow too.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I tell you that color. Yeah, yeah.
Casey KozaYeah, Rob, it's like Pittsburgh yellow.
Rob MyersI'm looking at it right now. Oh yeah, I have to ask, have you met Cam Haynes?
SPEAKER_00I have not met Cam Haynes.
Casey KozaOh, is he a is he a is he a uh um brun cleaning guy? Oh, okay. Yeah, uh I I like him. I don't I don't know who he is, but he beefs with uh the one guy online, so I kinda like that. That's pretty cool. Yeah. If you like online beefs, I guess, which I guess I do. Um yeah, that's awesome, Holly Ann I I I actually might check him out. Um yeah, I don't know what because there's a lot of tarmac in that race, and there is also a lot of steep, rocky sections, so I've been kind of going back and forth of of what to wear, um, you know, mostly so I don't break my leg. Um that's usually my number one goal. But yeah, awesome to hear that those worked out pretty well for you on a pretty difficult course, I think, to pick a shoe out just because of the amount of tarmac and and uh and you know trails mixed into one. Um moving on to the future, um, and what we have in Sora, I know Holly Ann you're running the hurricane.
SPEAKER_00Oh, there we go.
Casey KozaThat was actually really good. All right, now we're getting better.
Next Goals: Hurricane, JFK, Western States
Casey KozaI'm almost there. Uh, you're running the 100k. Caleb, you're still undecided, but beyond that, looking a little bit more to the future, maybe you know, next year, uh, what are the plans for you guys? What what what do we have going on? I know one of you is probably gonna go pace our friend, friend of the show, two-time guest Abby Herring. And I'm gonna forget the other one's name. Uh also a Marshall alum. Um, who's who's running it with her? Kylie Mastin. Yeah. Kylie Maston. Uh, maybe we'll get her on the show next to talk about uh about it. Are you are you are either of you going out there for for that?
SPEAKER_03Well, so the uh I I want to. And I I don't know if it's possible because our conference championship in cross country is the day before. And we're in Pensac, like we're near Pensacola, Florida. Actually, we're in the Alabama side, uh, near Gulf Shores, but it's it's like 45 minutes away. So I have to I am going to talk to my my boss, Coach Roberts, and see if he would let me maybe fly from either Pensacola or if like we get a connecting flight to Columbus, maybe from there to Phoenix. Because I do want to be out there for them, especially since Abby came all the way out there to pace me last year. Uh I just feel like that's the right thing to do. And I want to. I want to be there for them, um, especially for their first one, because it's gonna be it's gonna be gnarly. They're they're marathoners now, so this is gonna be a huge step up in a different way for them. But I'm trying to teach them all I can. I actually had dinner with uh Abby's parents uh because we had a cross-country camp last week, and I took her home to Parkersburg on my way back home and uh met with her parents and uh kind of just explained some of the crewing stuff for Havalina. There's a lot of stuff that you it if you don't know anything about the sport, it's very helpful to know. You know, like stuff like you know, if you're able to track them well, being able to pour water on your athlete as it as soon as they come into the uh the last eight station, the finish start line, and you can crew them all the way around the horseshoe. So like pour water on them as much as possible as they're running in, and then get all their bottles and stuff from them and just get some intel of what they need, and then once you get to your tent, you know, throw all the stuff, get everything ready, and then water them all the way out. Because that's one thing we learned from David Roche last year. My dad saw that happen, and he's like, Oh, that's a good idea. So, you know, you learned as you as you're there.
Casey KozaUm here's a question with that. Can Mr. or Mrs. Herring keep up with Abby through the aid station?
SPEAKER_03Good point. I mean, they I don't know if they can, because she's a pretty fast girl. Yeah, yeah.
Casey KozaAbby is not slow, so yeah.
SPEAKER_03No, it depends on what stage she's in, because uh one thing that is her kryptonite's her stomach. Uh she gets some some pretty bad GI distress from even like normal runs. So we gotta figure that out. Gotta stay cool, gotta be hydrated enough, be able to take in the car blow that she's trying to take in.
Casey KozaYeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Um so beyond that, do you have any plans uh coming up, maybe you will say within the next year of what you want to do?
SPEAKER_03I mean, so Western States is always the goal. Just trying to find the golden ticket race I can do is the tough part. You know, I was it I was thankful to be able to do happily in the past two years. Um that's part of the reason why I'm thinking about grindstone too, is because like CCC may be the only golden ticket race I can do, and that's for the following year. Um just the time of year. Now, I would love to do Black Canyon, but if there's a track meet that weekend, I would love to do Canyons, but there's a track meet that weekend. So I really just need to have an honest conversation with my boss and see like, is it possible to have an off weekend? You know, maybe one of those. Black Canyon is not able to because it's like right before a conference championship in indoor. But like maybe Canyons might work out or gorge waterfalls or something like that. Because I definitely want to go out west uh sometime in the spring if possible. Um but before then uh I was able to sign for JFK, so that will be like the highlight of the fall. Um very nervous about it because people have told me that it is in my wheelhouse, but I'm not sure if I'm like either fast enough or able to run the technical portion well enough, and it has both. So it will be a really big challenge. Uh I'm excited for it, but also kind of nervous.
Casey KozaSo yeah, yeah, nice. And I I would think it's as far as your boss is concerned, because you're a you know a track coach as well as a cross-country coach, maybe not the worst thing to have you know an ultra runner competing at the the high end of these races on the roster. Like, hey, Coach Caleb was out there at Canyons doing this, you know, the sport has gained popularity. I'm just saying, you know, Rob, maybe marketing-wise, not the worst thing for Marshall to be letting one of the loves it.
SPEAKER_03It's just do you sacrifice you know your team, like providing opportunities to them to do something that you want to do? Like that's the I have a hard time like emotionally trying to figure that out. Because I don't want to I their running is way more important than mine. Like that's my job. But I do want to do that stuff, and they're the kids are supportive of it. Uh I just want to make sure that they're taken care of before I take care of myself.
Casey KozaYeah, that's that's and that's awesome of you to to think that way if you're athletes and you mentioned Canyons, Calvin.
Rob MyersHave you run Canyons before?
SPEAKER_03No, no. I've the only time I've been on the course was Western States, and I know it's you know very different 'cause you like start different place and then you finish uh in Auburn, not necessarily at the track, but it's like downtown. Or something. Yeah.
Rob MyersIt's fun. You're built for that course, man. Like your style of running is 100% built for canyons.
SPEAKER_03You think so? Oh, you crush it. Don't you run down uh was it double stump and then come right back up?
Casey KozaOr is that yeah, there's an out and back portion of the 100k. And you'll yeah, you also have to.
Rob MyersI ran the 50k, so I can't comment on the 100k.
Casey KozaSo yeah, we ran like the last third of the course. But yeah, that is one of the portions. It's an out and back down to the yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um that kind of scares me too.
Casey KozaIt's so runnable out there. It's yeah, it's like it's like our towpath is just with a hill on it. I guess basically it's just up 18,000 feet. Yeah, it's just yeah, that's all. Yeah, you know, nothing.
SPEAKER_03And poison oak.
Casey KozaAnd yeah, a lot I did not get any poison oak when I was out there, thankfully. Uh Rob, you didn't either, did you?
Rob MyersNo, I don't get that stuff. I could run through a field and it wouldn't bother me. Really? I don't know why. No. Poison ivy said.
Casey KozaYou're like a marble superhero. That's awesome.
Rob MyersThat's awesome. It's a horrible power though, man. I wish it was something cooler.
Casey KozaAt least you got one. I mean I can't pronounce hurricanes.
Rob MyersWe all have our strengths.
Casey KozaI know. I'm sorry. Uh we'll just won't we just won't bring that up again, I think. That's probably probably my best bet. So yeah, that's that's awesome, Caleb. You know, I I look forward to to watching, you know, whatever it is that you choose to to do in the future. And uh yeah, bet best of luck. And and I I'd really would like to see you go run CCC. That's such a cool race. And uh yeah, big that's that's it's a little bit different crowd out there. It's very oh more so than Western states for sure. Like there's they like endurance sports over there. Like they're big on endurance sports. So Holly Ann. Yeah. Holly Ann, you're running the her the the 100k down there in West Virginia coming up. Um beyond that, what what do you have uh on the career horizon?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, so honestly, like my goal and socks and like what I've been working towards is the Hurricane 100K. And so like I just wanted to be able to get to the storyline healthy, know that I could do 100K and hopefully be competitive there. Um, so like this I'm still like kind of on that postpartum um build. And so I know that uh I do have a little bit of imposter syndrome because I had like no idea where I would be at. Um but I will say like the the 50 miler was kind of like a confidence based of like, okay, maybe I'm there, maybe I'm almost there, maybe I can start daydreaming or bigger things now. Um, but that being said, uh like outside of the fall, it is pretty new and fresh of like where I would be um for what I like I personally feel like I would be capable of. Um so like Caleb, my um plans and intents beyond Hurricane is the um JFK 50. I'm really excited about that. I've been wanting to do that for a really long time. I had signed up in 2023 before I found out I was pregnant. So that was like um obviously very excited um and um to to find out that I was pregnant, but uh had to to forgo um the 50 mile again. So it's it's been a race that I've been eyeing for a really long time. Um but uh other than that, that's kind of where I'm at, but I'm I'm excited with how Burning River turned out because I do feel like I can start like thinking of um bigger races and opportunities outside the fall.
Casey KozaYeah, yeah. And I dude, I I talked some shit for you down at the shoe store, Holly Ann. Because uh a couple guys down there that I know, and I was like, yeah, yeah, she did that off of like 40 miles a week. Like that was yeah, yeah, yeah. You should see her when she's you know, when she's go. So yeah, I was down there, yeah. I was definitely talking some shit for you, Holly Ann. Yeah, of course. But I look forward to to seeing what you do. Uh immensely talented, and you know, yeah, you you you you had you know two children, and that's a big part of your life now that you have, you know, you have the two little ones to take care of and and your husband as well. So yeah, it's tough to to dedicate the time necessary for for alter running. Caleb, you have a full-time job. Uh now it is around running, so that probably helps. Like you can just hop in with workouts and stuff, but yeah, you know. Uh and Holy and you're a researcher, correct, I believe.
SPEAKER_00Um, I am in a pharmacy school, so like this whole last year, um, that's like another aspect to it. Like I feel like it's a little bit more flexible than having exams every single weekend, which takes a lot out of you. Um, I'm still gonna be having like end-of-block exams, but basically it's like these five-week blocks of where like right now I'm working eight to four, but prior to that I was doing four ten-hour shifts, and like that changes every five weeks. And so like that's gonna be my life until the end of spring. It's just like I'm at the mercy of like wherever my what my preceptor schedule is.
Casey KozaYeah. I don't know why I thought you were doing research while you were in pharmacy school. Maybe I confused.
SPEAKER_00I mean, technically I am, but nothing like that I can't do like within the rotations, if that makes sense.
Casey KozaYeah, yeah. I knew pharmacy school. I just I don't know for some reason I thought while you were in school you were like some sort of researcher or something. Maybe I might have got it mixed up. Yeah, long day.
Rob MyersResearching how to be a pharmacist. There you go.
Casey KozaYeah, it's a long day, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But uh, no, that's it, it's awesome. And in in, you know, look again, we'd looking forward to both of you. Um always gonna root for my West Virginia friends down there. Uh, no matter if it's if it's you guys, uh Abby at Havelina, uh Kylie, Ryan Ramsby, great dude, uh, Dan Green, uh that that whole crew. Just awesome people down there in West Virginia. My favorite state to visit. I don't know about you, Rob. I know you like the Highland Sky.
Rob MyersOh, my favorite race. Doing this for a minute. So, Caleb,
Three-Week Training And Hydration Priorities
Rob Myersquick question. Put your coach hat on. I'm asking for a friend. You got the biggest race for your life coming up, or he's got the biggest race of his life coming up, my friend, in three weeks and hasn't trained nearly enough. What can he do the last three weeks that will make a difference? For a friend.
SPEAKER_03Which which race is it? Or what what is it? Is it like a hundred mile, fifty mile, 50k-ish?
Casey KozaYeah, it's a particularly hilly 50k-ish race in Europe.
Rob MyersOh, okay. A lot of croissants there. A lot of croissants.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, so the really the main thing is don't overdo it at this point because there's only so much you could do that's gonna help. I mean, I think running hills is never going to be uh a negative, you know, at this point. At any point. I think getting on some hills is always gonna be good. Um maybe doing some last-minute like hamstring uh exercises just to prepare the hamstrings for the hills as well. Uh so maybe it's a quad stuff as well, going down the hills. Um really at this point, you're just trying to feel fit. You're not going to gain massive amounts of like VO2 max points or you increase your lactic threshold too much uh because it's pretty soon. But you can work and get a little bit fitter. So I wouldn't dial it back too much. Um getting in the sauna is never gonna hurt. I think since it is somewhat altitude, like people don't really think it's gonna affect them too much because it's not like hard rock or anything. But I do think since it's higher than where we're at now, either in Western or Ohio, like getting in the sauna and being able to acclimate the heat a little bit better, it's gonna help. Uh being able to you know drink a lot and be able to flush everything out is going to be important. So create a plan, you know, especially a hydration plan more than anything, and then stick to the hydration plan because where it is at altitude, you're more than likely going to lose your stomach the first thing. Uh so make sure that you're able to drink enough while you're running and then also get the carb hydrate intake that you need as well. But some people neglect the hydration early on, and then they can't stomach the carbs are taking in because of the altitude, and it's just you know, snowballs. So make sure you do that stuff early. Um other than that, just have fun. Don't put too much pressure on yourself. I think it it's it's a cool experience just being there in general. So just have fun with it.
Rob MyersYeah, appreciate it. My my buddy, he's gonna really stick to that plan. So hydration, make sure you feel fit. You're not actually gonna be fit, but work on feeling fit.
SPEAKER_03So you can fake it till you make it. Like there we go.
Casey KozaFeel good, run good, right?
SPEAKER_03What's that?
Casey KozaFeel good, run good.
SPEAKER_03I mean Yeah, definitely. I there's there's some truth to it. Like, no matter what you are, if you believe in it enough, it's more likely to happen.
Casey KozaI think I think that'll get you through, Rob. Not you, your friend. My fault. Yeah, my buddy. Yeah, your buddy, good friend. Yeah. Can you tell us what the bargain boys is? Because I've watched some of the videos. I I enjoy it, and I think I've mentioned it a few times on the show. You have. Um, yeah. Um, what is the Bargain
Bargain Boys Media And Where To Follow
Casey KozaBoys media and and what role do you play in it, Caleb? And Holly Ann, have you been on the Bargain Boys Media? Will the boys let you on the show?
SPEAKER_00Um, I am for sure a bargain baddie. Just kidding. But um, no, no girls are allowed.
SPEAKER_03No girls allowed. So sorry. All right, so Bargain Boys actually originated, like the actual story was back when Dan Green and Alex Minor were working at Robert Trunk's store and they were fresh out of college and getting into ultra running. So people would ask him, like, oh, you know, you're getting sponsored or whatnot. And obviously that was the goal. But Dan would say, you know, race directors really need to recruit us to come to the races because you know, we're cheap. You know, we'll we'll race anybody. We're not scared of anybody, but we'll race you for a bargain. You know, you don't have to pay us anything, we'll just come. We love running. We're just going to give you all we got. So that's how it originated. And we uh it's a group of us, uh Ryan Ransby, Dan Green, Logan Kirby, and Jack Pennington and I. Um it really originated when Dan Green was training for uh for Kokodona because more so them than me. Those guys went to the depths of hell to train for Kokodona, waking up at like 4 a.m. every morning. I mean, Dan was getting up to like 150, 160 mile weeks, maybe a little bit more, doing deprivation training, and it really bonded them together. And then meanwhile, I was hurt, so I got to watch all this and be super, super jealous the whole time. Because like that's what I've always loved and dreamed is having a group to run with. Um and you know, me and Holly have been training partners for years, and you know, uh I just like running with people. I'm a run bum. So as I was coming back, I got you know kind of included with the group because they felt bad for me and they wanted me in. Um, but you know, thankfully they accepted me and we've been able to post a lot of cool videos, um, do interviews. Um Ryan Ransby is kind of like the master what uh whatever you want to call it, producer of it all. Um he's just really talented with that. I did create my first video though. Um it haven't posted uh on anything but my YouTube, on my personal YouTube, but it's of the Burning River, 50 uh 50 miles. So I'll have to make a post about that here soon on my socials. But uh yeah, we're just we're all trying to chip in so that way it's not all on Ryan. Um, but he does such a good job, it's really hard to match his level. So but my my uh I guess my role is just being the somewhat goofy kid that's a little squirrely and likes to run a lot and try to go to cool places, run fast.
Casey KozaSo yeah, that's awesome. I'm I'm glad you all are doing that. And it's yeah, just more more cool content. I know, yeah. I that now that you say it, that's what I saw was yeah, like Dan Green with the headlamp on and like multiple videos at 4 a.m. I was like, wow, these guys are intense. That's that's freaking awesome. So yeah. Hopefully they they they quit hating on you, Holly, and let you into the He-Man uh woman haters club.
SPEAKER_00So well, nah, I I don't think that uh they would be opposed to me ever joining. Um, but uh I have been on a hiatus and my schedule's been a little crazy with pharmacy school. So I don't blame them.
Casey KozaNo, no, and I I look forward to seeing it come back and yeah, I'm gonna check out that you so you how long is the video on Burning River, Caleb?
SPEAKER_03It's only 10 minutes long. It's not too much because it's really hard to get footage where you're only at three aid stations. So, you know, it's pretty limited to like mostly before the race, a little bit of the race, and a little bit after.
Casey KozaSo nice. I'll I'll I'll check it out here. Uh I'm I'm guessing Lindsay took a majority of the footage.
SPEAKER_03Say Chris and Lindsay did most of it, yeah. And then Corinne is like the star of it. So she's uh she has some several uh minutes uh in there.
Casey KozaNice. Uh Holly Ann's daughter, I imagine that is. Context clues there. Sorry, I should have said that. Lily Bell and Corinne. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome. Well, yeah, look forward to checking that out and and and and hopefully checking out more uh bargain voice media, including Holly Ann, here coming up. So yeah, awesome to chat with you guys. Certainly appreciate your time and and and thanks a lot from the Hobby Jogger. Well, thanks again, you two, for joining us. It was great to talk to you. Holly Ann, looking forward to when you're Dr. Holly Ann. Uh, we won't go into the whole doctor debate again, since you're actually getting a medical doctor. That's fine. You're not getting a doctorate in Latin. Um, not that there's anything wrong with that, but thank you so much for joining us. We certainly appreciate that here at the Hobby Jogger and look forward to to seeing what the both of you do next. So thanks again.
Rob MyersCaleb, Paul Ann, before you guys leave, where can our listeners find you on the internet?
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, basically most of my uh social media is Swift underscores one. Um so you can find me on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, the works. Strava.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and then for me, uh Strava, it's just Cale Bowen, has a picture of me from Havelina. Uh Instagram is CoachBowenM-U-X-C, I think. Uh yeah, I think so. So those are my like main two, Facebook as well, it's just my name. Um, and then uh we have a little YouTube channel called the Bargain Boys. You know, smash that subscribe button. Um we haven't put some stuff out over the summer. We needed a little break, uh, especially with the guys being injured and whatnot, like Logan and and Dan. So but we're men we're the men of the fall, so we're going to start putting some stuff out here soon. So definitely follow us there on the Bargain Boys.