The Hobby Jogger Podcast
Welcome to The Hobby Jogger Podcast, where elite athletes and ham-and-eggers lace up their stories. We explore the common ground that running creates from the world-class runner to the hobbyist hitting the pavement, trail or treadmill. Expect a blend of inspiration, laughter and the shared joy that makes every step count. Join us on this journey, where every run is a story worth sharing.
The Hobby Jogger Podcast
E60 | Happy Tendons, Better Runner - Part Deux
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Cold Starts And Host Banter
SPEAKER_00Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Hobby Jogger. I am the co-host, Casey Coza, once again, joined by Mr. Rob Myers, my co-host with the most. Rob, how you doing today?
SPEAKER_02I'm doing pretty well. Trying to uh motivate myself to get out there when it's cold and actually get in a few miles. Hopefully I'm successful after we record this because I haven't done it yet today. I think I should have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I feel you. Uh low of 11 degrees here this morning in Ohio. Did not go outside yet today. Rode the indoor bike a bit early this morning, and that was about it for me. Long run tomorrow. Gonna be a little bit warmer, so we'll see how it goes. Um but yeah, excited. I know we got some feedback that we didn't do enough uh for the world of attendance. So we are bringing back our good friend, Mr Abu Gergis. Abu, thank you for coming back for Tendon Talk part due.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for having me back. I'm excited.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, of course. Like that I it was uh again, I I'm going to get very educated on this topic here. I don't like I I told you I I don't know, I don't know shit about it, Rob, when it comes to tendon health. Yeah, well,
Why Tendons Matter Now
SPEAKER_00the people have spoken and they want more, they demand it. Yeah, it was it was not a thing back in the 80s and 90s when I, you know, was young and able. So yeah, this is I I I think Abu, and do you agree that it's kind of like this is the next thing? I mean, I know I said that last episode, but I I was looking for other like podcast material on it. I can't find a whole lot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it's one of those there's so much information getting put out there. And now that like as a society, we're kind of like deep in this information age of it's getting filtered better and better and better, and like actual high-quality evidence-based advice and guidance is getting pushed higher and higher. People are becoming more and more aware of it. Yeah, I agree. It's just it's more accessible to the general public, and now more people are training better. And it's no surprise, like everybody's numbers are going up. Like the number of running participants, like the big thing the past couple years was uh the boss of qualifying time extremely dropping down. I think it's just a byproduct of one more people getting involved in the sport to access to high-quality training and high-quality information has just increased rather than just information as a whole. The type of information getting put out and getting consumed is changed.
SPEAKER_00Now you mentioned you know that the participation going up. So I I want to get your take. I know you're in tune before we get into tendency uh part two here. I want to get your take on something that was recently announced uh this week because I know you're in tune with the Pennsylvania trail running world. Uh very in tune. Uh yeah, UTMB comes in and uh decides UT uh Happy Valley is for UTMB. Uh, didn't even know there was a trail race out there, to be honest. I knew there was rumors of an East Coast race
UTMB In Pennsylvania: Pros And Fears
SPEAKER_00getting purchased, and I didn't think it was going to be that one because I didn't know it existed. But how do you feel uh uh about that?
SPEAKER_01Um we're going right into it. Like the purest in me is not a fan. Again, just like with UTMBs and like Iron Man Group's whole business model, um, and how it relates to trail running in of itself in the culture and community. But as running as a whole, and I've kind of changed my thought on it. I think it's going to be a somewhat net positive. But again, I'm very I'm a very big supporter of going to local races, supporting small businesses, supporting your local races. Uh like they're world major marathons. They have to exist for a reason, and it gets people into the sport. Some people's only running ambition is to run one world major. And if that got somebody into running, so be it. Great. However, does every race need to be a world major, or does every race have to be under the UTMB umbrella? I don't think that's great, what's best for the culture. So I'm conflicted. I think it's going to be a net positive, like knee-jerk reaction was like, oh god, no. So it's like, I'm conflicted.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like I look, I'm gonna enter OCC here in a couple weeks. So, you know, whatever. Uh, did I want to see UTMB coming to Pennsylvania? No. But the races that exist there already, uh, World's End, Laurel Highlands in eastern states, those races are gonna be just fine. There's so much around those races. I look at it that it's gonna be UTMB marketing Pennsylvania for you know, for trail runners. And then you look, oh, here's these other races that I had no idea existed because they are. I don't want to say they're like niche races, but they are like smaller. They're not Western states, they're not UTMB, uh, they're not hard rock, they're not those races, but they're awesome races. And so I'm just hoping it brings more attention overall to to the state and to those races.
SPEAKER_01Right. And that's why I say I think it's gonna be a net positive, but I still am like apprehensive to like stomping out local races. That's like I think and I think that's everyone's concern.
SPEAKER_00I I I get it. There they want the New York crowd, you know, it's not a far happy valley's not a far drive from New York, from DC, from Philadelphia. Uh yeah, it makes sense to put a race near a population center, which they have grindstone. So yeah, I I think it's gonna be a net win, uh, like you, net positive. Do I like to see it come to Pennsylvania? No, not really. And I don't think there's that big of a market for people willing to wait five or six years in a lottery, maybe more, because the more races you buy, the more stones there are, the more entrants there are, the longer the wait list.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I mean, it it's one of those, not in my backyard, like it's a good thing overall. I feel bad for the local community, like the people that for years have been running that race and they look forward to it every year. But at the end of the day, you look at it globally, I think it's a good thing. And you look at it from the U.S., if you want to go out there and run a UTMB race to get the stones to get into UTMB, it's a good thing. Every race they had in the US, uh, because there's not that many of them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But again, I'm not for stopping out the local communities and cultures. Agree. Like that's what made me fall in love with the sport. Why are we gonna take that away?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, 100% agree, which is why I will be entering the 70-mile Laurel Highlands race tomorrow. There we go. Yes, yes. You're doing it? Yeah, I support locals. Let's go. Will says he's doing it again. We'll see. I don't know, Rob, you in? I'd love to see that happen. Uh I'm gonna be there.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if I'm in for 70. I'm in for something. In Casey, just no mile 50 starts to smooth out, so you're good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I saw that when I ran the back half
Support Local Races And Plans
SPEAKER_0050k. Yeah, it was real smooth there that last. Yeah, was waiting for it and just never. I think honestly, of that course, the back 50, the lat the hardest part was the last three miles for sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Just a technical descent the whole way. Yeah, it was brilliant. Again, if you have the legs for it, you can just bomb it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'd like to go out there one day, you know, after I haven't run 28 miles, I think it'd probably be a little bit a little bit better at it. Oh yeah. Yeah. But no, awesome. Awesome. Yeah, I glad. Hey, I'm glad anytime I get to plug, you know, the local races, Laurel uh World's End in Eastern States, because those are local to me in Pennsylvania, even though I live in Ohio now, but that's where I grew up and enjoy going back every summer for it. And Rob, I know we have a big group. The group is building for this year's Laurel Highlands race. So yeah, this will be my fourth year. I think there's quite a few new faces. Yep, this will be my fourth year as well. Uh quite a few new faces coming out this year. So yeah, it'll be a lot of fun and looking forward to that. But the reason you're here, Abu, is for tendon talk because Rob and I need to learn so as to lengthen our career, make our career a little bit better, uh, and maybe hopefully prevent some injuries from occurring or rehabbing if those injuries uh do flare up. So most of this show, Abu, is going to be you telling us and us learning, because uh yeah, I'm I I don't have a lot of knowledge on this topic at all, which is the main reason I wanted you back for for part two. And get your pen and paper ready. Let's go. Got always got the pen and paper ready. So let's start off um with injury recovery, because I know we talked a little bit about it last time. I I you hear so many runners, athletes in general,
Setting Up Tendon Talk Part Two
SPEAKER_00Achilles issues. How can we let's start off with preventing first off? I think that's probably a good idea, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we'll we'll start there. And I just came, I'm just coming off like the worst who of my life, so sorry if I'm like congested like sniffly. So as far as prevention as a concept, it does not exist. Okay. What do you mean? You can't prevent anything in life. Okay, to absolutely eliminate the likelihood of something happening, especially in injuries, because they're so complicated and there's multiple factors going into it.
Prevention Vs Mitigation Mindset
SPEAKER_01Should we say mitigate? Yeah, I like that. Simply because it's a when when somebody gets injured, it's an it's an emotional experience as well. They get frustrated of like, oh, what was I doing? What wasn't I doing? I thought I was doing all the right things, and this still happened. I thought I was doing the exercise to prevent this, and then it happens. Now you have even more work to do to overcome that, rather than like, all right, what are the things to optimize our health and our performance and consistently over a long period of time? And whatever hiccups happen, how do we manage those? Is like how I like to look at things.
SPEAKER_00So somebody, yeah, they could listen to everything you say to prevent the injury, still get injured, but they did everything correctly. So we're just trying to decrease the chances of somebody, you know, right. Okay, got it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's like the best athletes in the world get hurt all the time. Yep. They're more than likely than us for sure, are doing all the right things, but they're still getting injured. So you can't prevent injuries. I think pain is in a an intrinsic part of life. It kind of needs to be embraced to be to also be uh controlled. If that makes sense, yeah. Yeah. And when it comes to the realm of sports performance, running, training, trail running, even something like extreme, like sky running, mountain running, whatever, you have you have either knowingly or unknowingly increased those risks. And that's okay. Like when you go, when you every day I come to work and I turn on my car, I accept the risk that an 18-wheeler might just blow right through me. The risk of driving a car. Everything has risk, and it's okay as long as you are okay with them. It's called life, right? Exactly. Um, so that's kind of my take on like injury prevention as a whole, and like a buzzword. Um, yeah, yeah, makes sense. But as far as like the things to properly take care of your healthy functioning body and get it performing as well as possible, there's multiple things. Um, your training and load management. So, again, we we talked about last episode of most people get injured by doing too much too soon after doing too little too long. Okay. So the person that's fresh off of an injury and really excited to train again, and they ramp up their volume and then they get hurt a month to three months later, that's called like a boom or bust cycle.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Same thing, I'm sure, exists for tendons. We're not just gonna blow them out here the first week, you know. You gotta
Load Management And Boom-Bust Cycles
SPEAKER_00build the volume.
SPEAKER_01Yes, even more so for tendons, because they have less blood supply than, let's say, your muscle. So they heal slower. Okay. So last episode I talked about the acronym TLT, tendons left tension. When it comes to tendon rehab, the another acronym is TTT. Tendons take time. So even when you're out of that pain phase of like, all right, my knee, uh, like my patella tendon below my knee isn't hurting, my quad tendon above my knee isn't hurting, my heel or Achilles isn't hurting, does not mean tissue healing has stopped. Okay, that does not mean you are done with the recovery process. Got it. Okay. Because tendons take time. And managing the load and slowly and gradually building that back up is very important. I know like we talk about prevention, but the and we kind of went into an injury, but this still matters for the healthy person. You can't have wild swings in your weekly volume, for example. That's like the easiest way, just numbers week over week, how many miles or how many hours are you running a week? You can't go from five to eight suddenly. Why? Because tendons take time, even a healthy one. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So I'm trying to think like things that I've had happen to me and like the Pateller, especially just it it took forever. Like it was I'm trying like it was like months of of just pain and in you know being injured, and it's very frustrating. Now, in hindsight, yeah, maybe I I I probably came back too soon and then put too much volume into it. Not from running, this is back in soccer days. Uh football for those that under really understand. So yeah, no, uh it makes perfect sense to me, Abu. How I guess how often do you see athletes that just because I know it's it's it's and we talked about it a little bit the last episode, where people just want to go out blasting, always. That's like our nature, especially with athletes that want to get better. You know, oh, I need to get healthy so I can get back running. How often do you see that just blow up on them? Like it's a pretty common mistake when it comes to tendency.
SPEAKER_01Yes, very, very like boom or bust cycle is a it's like a term in a textbook. Of it's a behavioral pattern that is very, very important to one identify and then two change. Because if that cycle, that behavioral cycle doesn't stop, this person's always going to keep getting injured and then end up in what's called like not a textbook term, rehab purgatory, where you get banged up, you shut it down, then you feel a little bit good, you go back into it, then you get banged up, shut it down, and you're spinning your wheels. So it's a very important thing. And it doesn't even have it doesn't have anything to do with training and everything to do with an individual mindset of again, especially in the world of endurance sports, the long game is the game, and it's not the micro of this 12-week training block, it's the macro of can I stack consistent running weeks over and over and over again, months and months, years and years again, consistently without taking massive breaks.
SPEAKER_00The people that I follow that I think are really good, you know, it's a gentle curve up, and then it's a long plateau, and then their event. Exactly. I'll I'll see some people that they'll they'll be pretty consistent, and then, but just for some reason they want to have like these two, we'll say they're doing 50 miles a week, they want to have these two 90 mile weeks. It's like well, that doesn't really do anything for you other than open you up to injury. Like you're not gonna get now. If you if you stack together, you know, eight weeks of volume increasing to 90, you know, you you know, where you're at 60, 70, 80, 90, 90 a couple weeks, then you're getting a lot out of it, I feel 100%. Yeah, which which I guess we're kind of the training there, but I I assume it's very similar with attendant health and in the exercises that you recommend. Like starting off, my Achilles, how much time do you want that
Tendons Take Time: Healing 101
SPEAKER_00at tension? Like week one, haven't done anything ever in my life. How much time do you want like that Achilles at tension?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, got it. So how it pertains to a healthy overall tendons again, what we talked about last time, it just needs load and a lot of it. Okay, isometrics and eccentrics, what we talked about last time, are the easiest ways. Can you go over what those are real quick? So isometric is holding one position and not moving. Got it. Okay. You're gonna stand on your toes. Yes, okay. I'll be on my tippy toes and I'm just staying there. Okay. I'm holding the top, I'm holding the bottom, I'm holding the middle of a calf race, whatever it might be.
SPEAKER_00Do you I can't remember if we covered this, so forgive me if we did and it's repeated, but like standing at the edge of a stair. Do you know what I mean? So your heel is lower than something. That's also one of the isometrics. Also an isometric. Okay.
SPEAKER_01An isometric is just a position, it's an action. Okay, I can isometrically hold my elbow at 90 degrees and stay here.
SPEAKER_00Got it. Okay. And don't bounce. I know do not bounce, right? Yes, no bouncing. No, that's no longer ISO. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Um, an eccentric is lengthening underload. Okay. So the way down from a calf raise. The only reason those two are like buzzwords now is because they're very, very easy to overload. So what that means, and it's very important for the healthy tendon. Okay. Let's say I can only do 10 calf raises before before I fail with 50 pounds. But I can do an calf raise isometric with a hundred pounds. I have now introduced more load into that tendon than I otherwise could with just regular calf raises.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So you're so you would rather have me like I get my kettlebell. We'll say I we'll say I have a hundred-pound kettlebell. I don't, that would be silly for me. Um, and I hold it and I do my calf raises and I just hold it there, right? So I'm getting more out of that than just doing just the calf raises up and down, up and down. Is that what we're tending to watch?
SPEAKER_01No,
Isometrics, Eccentrics, And Why
SPEAKER_01you should be doing both.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I should be doing both.
SPEAKER_01And this is a very important thing. Everybody's looking for the next best thing. Yeah. The best thing. I want the absolute best. It does not exist.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's that's why I have you here as everything.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And like this, like how to frame it of you should be doing heavy calf raises. You should be getting big strong calves, because that will also help your tendons and two will also help your gas rock and your solace, which is your calf muscles. You should be doing isometrics because you can put more weight than you otherwise could. You should be doing plymetrics. Okay. And it sounds like a lot because it is, and it's okay. Because if you like what we talked about last time, a little bit goes a long way. Got it. Yes. Yeah. So you do need to do your calf raises and your strength training. You do need to do your isometrics. And again, I'm a I don't want it to be overwhelming because what I'm talking about is like two sets when you go to the gym.
SPEAKER_00Okay. That that's what I wanted it. That was okay. So that's starting out, that's what you want my volume to be is just two sets of calf raises, isometric and eccentric.
SPEAKER_01Mate, uh I wouldn't waste my like if you're a healthy person, like you can do eccentrics. Okay. Like I use eccentrics in a rehab setting because they tend to be more tolerable to load a tendon without somebody getting flared up. Okay. Okay. So like you can do your cap raises, heavy isometrics, apply metrics. Congratulations. You did what you had to do to have a strong and robust tendon to reduce your risk of injury and improve your performance. Got it.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, two sets, how many times a week? Say two to three times a week. Two or three. So not much. We're not doing all the time.
SPEAKER_01We'll keep it very simple. Very simple. That's like five minutes a day. And really like 15, if we're being like it. Honest with like time to like break and whatnot. Okay.
SPEAKER_02So for isometric and we're up on our tippy toes. What do you recommend as far as weight? Like where to start? Where do you think it's going to make a difference for the average healthy person? You know, 30 to 50. So not you, Rob.
SPEAKER_01We'll talk about you in a bit. No, I'm in that 30 to 50 range. Um for the uninjured person, high intensity. So um again, I was sick all of this week, but last week I I hit it like an isometric PR. Again, I like the gamify training, it keeps it engaging. I held 350 pounds for 30 seconds. And it's high intensity, high effort. Okay. And I can't calf raise 350 pounds, but with an isometric, I can hold it. That's the value of the isometric.
SPEAKER_00Something concerning here. Um, you know, I I've seen you know ships with their mooring ropes snap. Do I need to worry about that happening to my Achilles tendon, putting it under this much load?
SPEAKER_01The Achilles tendon is one of the most robust tendons in the human body. It is very hard to tear. There's a reason why it's ultras basketball. Yes. Unless you have ultras. Um again, I would say heavyweight, shoot for 30 seconds. If you can hold the same weight for 60 seconds, go up and wait. That would be like a safe guideline for progressions. Okay. Of if you can comfortably hold it for 60, you absolutely can go up for um up and weight and reduce the time. Of like fat calf raised PR example, or I saw example I just put up. I was sweating bullets during those 30 seconds. And that's okay. Yeah. But if you're new to it, it's going to be hard anyways. And if it feels like a joke, increase the weight, see what happens, and then try and hold
Practical Achilles Loading Guidelines
SPEAKER_01the weight as long as you can. If you can go beyond a minute, you can put on some more weights. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Got it. Okay. So, oh, all right. Gonna start with the because I do have, I think I have 70 pounds of weight. Yeah, that I could just I mean, in in and Rob, we could do it like behind our desk, you know. Like yeah, you work, you know, just get up and if you're fortunate enough to to work from home, uh, just have your weights there and very easy, something very simple. All right, we covered the Achilles. That's the last tendon I know anything about, Abu. And I knew very little about that. What well the pateller, what are some other isometric holds that would be beneficial for runners?
SPEAKER_01Um leg extension and leg curl. So that's your quad tendon, patellar tendon, and your hamstring tendons. So you're kicking out.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Leg extension. Got it. Okay, so you're sitting in your chair and just extend it out and just hold it there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but you need weight again. So you go to your gym, you go to that seated kicking machine, put the pin way down, kick up against that pad as hard as you can, push, push, push, push, push, push, push. 30 seconds go by, take a break.
SPEAKER_00Oh, for the seated, yeah, because it's just your basic. Okay. Got it. And then the extended, same machine. Just as much as you can, as much as you can lift one rep and then dry and hold it.
SPEAKER_01I think understanding what tendons do and how to train them will make a lot of this clearer.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So last that like last episode, we talked about tendons being rubber bands. Okay, when you have a thick, tet thick rubber band, you don't need to pull it far and it has a lot of energy, and once you let go, it flies away. Okay. Creating tendon thickness and stiffness is the goal. Okay. Muscle strength is also the goal. Heavy strength training does hits all of that. So if you're running and you aren't actively strength training two times a week, just start there. Just lift some weights. Everything else I'm going to talk about, it's minutia compared to that. Meetup, so it pertains to like sex-oriented.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah, we we've stressed that here. Strength training, and it's it does make a world of difference, like from everything, speed, endurance, everything. Uh, you know, just doing simple, you know, squat. You know, uh what's the thing where I put my foot behind me on the stool rob and squat single-leg squat?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, rear foot elevated split squat, Bulgarian squats.
SPEAKER_00Bulgarian split squats, yeah. That one and lunges. Like, that's my whole routine. That's perfect.
SPEAKER_01That's good enough.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And like all of these are strategies just to put the system, the human, under load in a way that is not running. Okay, we need variability, we need different stressors. So you only get good at one thing. The second you have an outside stressor that isn't that one thing, you'll get banged up because you have no durability or stress resistance against it.
SPEAKER_00Got it. Okay. Um, I know one I mentioned the last show was the
Quads, Patellar, And Hamstring Holds
SPEAKER_00single-legged wall sit. Yeah. You recommend okay. I like it.
SPEAKER_01Great for your quad tendon, great for your patellar tendon.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, love it. I got the score of great, Rob. You're doing good. You keep a score? I am. I am. So, okay, so that's another one. Now, what I'm sorry, I talked over you when you said what it works. Uh quads for sure. Uh that's where I feel it the most. Uh, what else?
SPEAKER_01Your quad tendon, your patellar tendon. They kind of work together, they just change names where they are, like above the knee, below the knee. Um, it's great. Okay. So when we establish the fact that you just have to lift weight two times a week consistently, you're gonna get a lot of these tendon health benefits. Okay. Now to make them even better, then you introduce like very heavy resistance training, very heavy isometrics, okay. And now like the whole tier of plymetrics that can get involved. Uh, there's multiple tiers within plymetrics, and you should touch all of them. So it's like do everything a little bit, and you're good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I can honestly say, I don't know about you, Rob. This is the first time in my life I have ever heard the term weighted isometric. Like, I I brand new to me today is weighted isometric. Well, brand new from the last two episodes, but yeah, I had never before this have heard about this. So gotcha. Okay. Brand new to me. Like it is, it truly is. Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So we just need to put ourselves under heavy loads when we're not running, because running is only one type of stress. Okay, we need variability, okay. Like we want like our like the human body is designed to be a jack of all trades.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And when we get too hyper specific specific, like the person that only runs, and then they have to do anything remotely different from running, like going up a hill or down a hill. We all probably felt it. Down like a very hilly race that downhills crush our quads. Yep. We're not used to it. Our knees start hurting, our quads blow.
SPEAKER_00A lot of things start hurting.
SPEAKER_01Not because downhill running is bad, but we were not prepared for downhills.
SPEAKER_00Which, Rob, Black Canyon, all downhill.
SPEAKER_02All downhill. Well, question. You know, I know it's a running show, so we're focused
Strength Twice Weekly Is Non-Negotiable
SPEAKER_02kind of on the waist down. Uh what do we think about the waist up when you're working out, you're laying on the bench, you got the dumbbells, same thing, just grab them and hold them. Hold them up there instead of just up and down.
SPEAKER_01The muscles in your upper body have tendons too. Again, we're runners, so we're more concerned with the waist down. You look at a pitcher, they're doing upper body plyometrics, they're doing upper body isometrics and whatnot. Um, as us for runners, it doesn't really matter that much. Like, I don't do them often because like I don't need a strong bicep tendon. So not pulling my arm way back to pitch a baseball 100 plus miles per hour. I wish I could, but I can't. Um, so it's like, but upper body strength training, still very important. Big biceps look really cool on race state pictures, but then there's a bunch of other reasons why upper body strength matters for running and running economy and whatever. But yes, it still matters. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, we need a strong core as well, right? But maybe instead of doing uh 50 sit-ups, you just kind of hold it. Crunch up in a ball, hold it for a while.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm sure there's gotta be tendons in in the abdominal region, right?
SPEAKER_01Every muscle has a tendon because tendons a tendon's job is excuse me, is just to attach muscle to bone.
SPEAKER_00Huh. We should have led with that, I think. Better late than never. Better late than never. Yeah. Okay. I get I I don't think I knew that. To be I Casey just had his mind blown. I I yeah, I just never, you know, I never learned about it. I don't know. And I read a lot and do like that's yeah, this is this is all brand new to me.
SPEAKER_01So how big the tendon is, how what its utility is in different areas of the body, different, but it is there. That's just how muscles attach to bones.
SPEAKER_00That's it. Now you briefly mentioned pliometrics. Yes. Um, and and we're gonna keep this pertaining to let's keep it pertaining to like the Achilles heel area and the quads, like for runners. How I I know you said to introduce them slowly. What are a couple like very beginner mentioned jumping rope? Um, so we'll go a little bit beyond that. What is like step two of the planetrics, or or if it's something just big not necessarily for performance, but I I got a feeling they're gonna be pretty similar, but for injury uh
Plyometrics: Start Small, Stay Consistent
SPEAKER_00reduction.
SPEAKER_01Here's like another big concept of training is rehab, and rehab is training. Okay, all rehab is is just training in a painful environment. Okay. Of your trying to decrease the pain just to open up the capacity for more training to occur. Yeah. Okay. The weights might be different, but the principles still remain the same. We need to calm down the area, get the range of motion, so do our mobility, and then we need to load it and strengthen the area so it's more durable. Whether that happens in a rehab setting or a training setting, doesn't matter. It's the same principle. How it looks might be a little different, but the underlying principle is the same.
SPEAKER_00Got it. Oh, yeah. I mean, that makes sense. Because you're, I mean, recovery, which we just did an episode with Dr. Bonnie about recovery, that's you know, you train, then you recover, then you train, then you recover. I mean, that's you know that's a good segue, I think, Rob, from from Dr. Bonnie.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And uh I don't want to deviate too far, but you always hear for some injuries just running through it. And there's some truth to it from the runner's perspective, right? There's certain injuries that after your body warms up and your muscles loosen up, seems like, hey, everything's good to go. And then so what is your opinion on kind of running through an injury? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh, exciting. Now we get to like this is one of my favorite other favorite topics is pain as a concept of pain is also multifaceted. Um, have you guys heard of like the central governor?
SPEAKER_00Like, do you mean that like a governor on a car that keeps you below a speed limit? Kind of, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like this is actually like the same exact thing. Um, I forgot which book it was. I think Endore. Um, he talks about it a lot in the book. Um, I think it's Alex Hutchinson. Don't quote me on that. But, anyways, um, our brain has something called, like, we'll call it a central governor. Okay, of its job is to protect us and keep us alive.
SPEAKER_00Yes, which you know, during a race, you want to quit. And your mind goes through every excuse of, oh, hey, you know, my girlfriend's gonna be at this aid station. I can just drop here and say my ankle hurts and ain't no big deal. Exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like the metaphor metaphorical demons. Um, or like more, like more like tangible, like you touch a hot stove, you don't think about it, you automatically pull back. You didn't consciously pull back your hand. That was a true reflex. Your body's wired to keep you safe. The same thing. Uh there's pain that's like we'll call central governor pain. Of us, like, this is getting challenging. Your your body uh is getting concerned, your brain's getting concerned, and it's sending signals like, hey, this is not good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And it'll like you'll start to experience pain, but if you endure it, it just kind of flies away. But then there's also, oh, my heel hurts, and my Achilles looks like a golf ball. That's real pain. Yeah. Actually, no, they're both real, but they follow different pathways through your nervous system. Okay. Pain pain is very heavily influenced by a multitude of things. Okay. The environment, the physical stress, internal stress, everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh your in your mentality, I'm sure, perceives those much differently, you know. Right. Other real danger and you know, perceived. Right.
SPEAKER_02But that's what so many people are taught today
Pain, Central Governor, And Decisions
SPEAKER_02that if it hurts, stop doing that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And there's a balancing act. Agree. Um, yeah, like that kind of reinforces like what's called like a fear avoidance uh behavior of every time like pain is bad. And every time I feel pain, I need to stop. That's sometimes not true.
SPEAKER_00Do you notice a difference is like because back in the 90s when I played sports, it was play through this injury, like you're fine. Like, even like head head injuries didn't matter. It was just play through this. Do you notice a difference in the generations in how they deal with injuries? Like someone just cut like we'll say 21 to 25 versus someone my age 42, and how they deal heavily, yeah, heavily.
SPEAKER_01And like this is like cultural norms, societal norms, like what you talked about, like the old school 80s train through it. People like, oh yeah, it hurts, but that's okay. And they just don't care. That's like a dismissive behavior, and then like other people are fear avoidant of like the second they feel anything that isn't comfort, they get apprehensive and pullback. Both are not conducive to progress in health. Yes, they're extremes, they're on opposite ends of the same spec extreme spectrum. Um, I have, yeah. I think like the older generation, they're a little bit more blunt, they like very clear, more instruction. Um, people more so my age, like they're accepting of the nuances. I don't I wouldn't say like one's tougher than the other. Or like I I yeah, I haven't seen a pattern with that.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. Because it could be the exact same injury to the exact same degree. It it's not it's not toughness. It's well, it's dumb when you're that injured and you just try and run through it, like it is. Like it's I I don't want to conflate toughness, you know, here. Yeah. And just being intelligent, I guess. So right.
SPEAKER_01And there's a balancing act of like you can be negligent and just push your body well past then what it's supposed to be doing in that current moment, and you could be avoidant. Sometimes you do need to like work through it just a little bit to make some progress.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And if you keep avoiding any ounce of discomfort, you miss out on that progress. And that's why I say they're both extremes and they're both not conducive to progress. So we need to be in the middle. Correct.
SPEAKER_02Somewhere in the Do you think maybe it's a good idea that you know knees bothering you instead of saying, hey, I'm gonna sit it out today, you know, I'm not gonna go for that run. Maybe you go out and you take it easy. You know, maybe you put two, three miles in, see if the injury starts to feel a little better, and if it doesn't, or it's getting worse, then maybe it's a rest day.
SPEAKER_01Bingo. That's how you play the middle ground. Like an example is like, all right, my knee's bothering me. I have a speed workout scheduled. I really don't think I can hit these paces without my knee bothering me. Let's turn it into an easy run, see what happens. Oh, I went, I had an hour speed workout scheduled. I did an hour easy instead, and I felt good. Great, I made progress, and I didn't bank myself up. So I didn't grit through a speed workout and potentially make my injury worse. And I didn't avoid it, so I lost out on progress. We found the middle ground, and that's how you play the long game, and that's how you stack consistent weeks over and over and over again without getting severely banked up because you're still doing the thing. We're adjusting it, depending on how we feel, and we can do that consistently over and over and over and over and over again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think I I want to say it was Jess Brazot who I was talking to about this. And it's not like for us that we we work, our training
Smart Adjustments Beat Rigid Plans
SPEAKER_00schedule has to be a certain way. I mean, we're gonna do a long run on Saturdays because I can't do a long run on Tuesday afternoon. I have a job and I have to pay bills, so I can't do that. But if we just look at training a little bit different, we're like Tuesday doesn't have to be a speed workout, right? Which is exactly what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01No, it's just like a culture, like like me had say Monday is chess day, runners, Tuesday's track day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you go Tuesday, it doesn't have to be that way. You can just, and I I did. I was had one scheduled and went out, just didn't feel like doing it that day. I was like, I can go run easy for an hour, no problem today. I just don't feel at all like doing it and change it. But yeah, she I I'm pretty sure it was her. Was like, just make up your schedule during the week. Like have what you want to do planned. Like, okay, I want to do this, this workout, this workout, these trail runs, whatever, and just do what you feel like doing that day. Like, because you're gonna get more out of your workouts and you're running if you just do what you feel like doing, get it all done. But yeah, kind of set your own schedule. Bingo, not pattern it.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and that's exactly how you like reduce your risk of injury too. Because they could, like I said, injuries are influenced by multiple things. Uh I'm bogged, like again, we all have jobs. I'm stressed with work, family, relationships, whatever. I didn't sleep good that night, and I'm dreading this speed workout, and I feel like a bag of bricks. I'm not properly recovered, I'm probably not properly trained, I'm overstressed, so cortisol is high. And then I go and try and stress myself even more rather than just taking it back. That is also how you adjust in the micro. To promote long-term, like macro consistency, which matters way more for overall progress, overall health, and like injury risk reduction.
SPEAKER_02I think it's good to have multiple goals too. Like here's I'm feeling great. I'm gonna do this. If I'm feeling really bad, at least I got in this, right? Whether it's 15 minutes just workout, just bodyweight workouts. I really wanted to go for a run for an hour. I wanted to go to the gym and lift heavy for an hour, but I got the bare minimum in. Like the bare minimum is not the goal. The bare minimum is when I put my head down at night, I'm okay with it. 100%.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Like you give me the guy that can operate at 60% forever, or the person that can operate at 100% sometimes, the guy that can operate at 60% is gonna win, depending on how long the timeline is.
SPEAKER_00Makes sense. Consistency and yeah, 60%. Hey, you're doing something. You're ahead of the guy at 0%. Exactly. You're ahead of the guy that's in that boomer bus cycle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the doom loop. Exactly. I like that. The doom loop. I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna use that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's uh it's one of my yeah, drinking terms. You get stuck in the Doom Loop, and your only thing to cure your hangover is another you know, shot of Jameson, and yeah, stuck in the Doom Loop for a week, right, Rob?
Consistency Over Hero Weeks
SPEAKER_00Sometimes it's not a bad thing if it's after a 50k, right? No, sometimes it's not bad. Sometimes it's a good time. Yeah, the doom loop. So yeah. Okay, we got a little off track there from tendon talk, but it's it I feel that it's very important part of the whole tendon, I like tendon talk.
SPEAKER_01Everything we just talked about is how you preserve happy, healthy tendons and promote increase in performance. You're consistently strength training, you're accommodating your training to your life and how your body feels internally and externally, and you're stacking that over and over and over again, and you're not doing too much too soon. Congratulations. You're doing everything from a bare bones perspective you need to do to keep yourself performing as best as you can for as long as you can. Everything we actually just talked about is what I was going to talk about.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I I mean I'm looking at my outline here, and that pretty much because even you know, the performance bit of it, yeah. If if I can consistently run, you know, 60 miles, now I can run 65 miles for for a you know during a training block, I'm gonna be just that much better because it's more time on my feet and more injury-free time on my feet, which is most important. So yeah, makes makes perfect sense to me. Yeah, and more load on your tendons. And more load on your tendons. So so you have the the springy look, you know, heading into mile, whatever you are of whatever race, whether it's a 5k, 10k, 100 mile, whatever.
SPEAKER_02It's a Jim Walmsley look, right?
SPEAKER_00The Jim Walmsley bounce, yeah. Yeah, it is, yeah, it's pretty amazing after 100 miles. He's not shuffling. And there's a couple of those, you know, a few of those guys and and women that can do that, which is I feel like someone's paid a lot of attention to a tendon person that's able to do that. So that's a happy tendon right there. A very happy tendon. Because I'm sure that none of this is a secret to like the elite athletes, right, Abu? Right. Right. They they've all been doing this. This isn't something I mean. I've known of plyometrics and isometrics since I was a kid. I just did not understand or you know, it's the application.
SPEAKER_01That's always like everybody has the information. It's how do I apply this to myself where people get caught up? And I think that's where people want to like grasp at what's the best thing, it doesn't exist. Whatever you can do consistently. If your only bandwidth for plyometrics is doing some pogos, great, only do that and do them well. Because guess what? In order to jump, you need to bend your knee. Yeah, and you're influencing your Pateller and quad tenants. Great, you're checking that off too. Like the other tiered system, it's great to have, but identify whatever you're like your bare minimum that you can do and stick to that, and then eventually pick that up. It's just like running, like what we just talked about with the weekly volume thing.
SPEAKER_00That reminds me. I'm going to order my jump rope right now. You still haven't ordered your jump rope, dude? No, I meant to. Rob, you have one. You just you said right? I do. Yeah. Should have reminded me. No, because it's something I do. I want I'm gonna put in, you know. There we go. Nice $5.99, $5.99
Efficiency Gains From Tendon Work
SPEAKER_00uh jump rope. Did you get the one with the beads that makes noise when it hits the ground? No, no, I just got a simple, uh simple one. I don't need I don't need more noise around the house. Got it. See, Abu, I'm learning. I love it. As we speak, I am I'm getting it done. So yeah. No, it was lowest hanging fruits. That's all that matter. I feel that it's a very low-hanging fruit that the common runner, the hobby jogger, has not really got a hold of yet. Because I like I said, I other than uh Jason Fitzgerald, Jason Fitzgerald Strength running podcast, other than that, I had not heard it mentioned in any kind of running. I don't think at all. Rob, did you?
SPEAKER_02No, no, not at all. And I listened to uh a fair amount of running podcasts, I have to admit. And no, not a popular topic.
SPEAKER_00I I know we had mentioned it briefly, and this is what I want to wrap up with with you, Abu. I I hope you're familiar with it. Normally, if I were to cite a study, I'm not actually citing a study because I haven't read it and I don't know what it's called, but there was a study on how much ISA, I believe it was isometrics and plyometrics benefited running efficiency. Because I, you know, we mentioned before that I believe that running efficiency matters way more than BO2 max. Uh that's just my personal opinion. And if you listen to my opinion, I probably not good. I might not be right. Um, so uh yeah, like we we did mention the study last time, but do you know exactly what it said or not?
SPEAKER_01Uh don't quote me on it. It's somewhere between like 12 and 20 percent. Okay. Either way, that's a huge number. Yeah, because we spent $300 on shoes, like the Nike Alpha Fly, like when it first came out, I think they called it the 4%. Yeah, 4% improved running economy by 4%. And it was a groundbreaking technology. This activity, more than triple that. And all you have to do, 10 to 15 minutes, two to four times a week.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And and we're stressing here, do not overdo it at the beginning because you're not gonna get 20%. You're gonna be seeing somebody like Abu at a rehab facility for whatever injury it is that you pick up. But no, that's I wanted to end with that because I I just wanted to reinforce uh how beneficial this can be. Yeah in in the studies. I maybe I'll find the study
Simple Habits, Big Long-Term Payoffs
SPEAKER_00um when I'm eating dinner tonight, and and we'll link it in the show notes, Rob. Uh, or Abu, if you have it or you can find it and send it to me, that'd be great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'll find it. I'll send it to you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I have it somewhere in a folder. It it it's I I know uh the strength learning podcast talked about it, but that's why I wanted to bring it up again, just because it was it's so impactful uh both to your health because you can start to stack miles, weeks of miles up, you know, in a row and really make an improvement if you want to make an improvement to your overall health, which I think anyone listening to the show probably does. Uh so yeah, that's that's why I wanted to wrap it up with that study there.
SPEAKER_01Like the biggest things I like I want to make sure that get put across is there's a bunch of different types of plometrics, there's a bunch of different activities. What matters most is can you do a little bit of it and just like dabble every week consistently and without overdoing it? Great, you're doing good enough. There's a bunch of nuances within all of them that I personally enjoy because it's my passion, it's my livelihood, it's my hobby. It becomes majoring in the minors. Are you running consistently? Are you not taking massive swings and you're running volume and intensity? Are you strength training consistently and are you jumping consistently? None of that is like groundbreaking. I have to reframe my whole training plan activities. I'm talking like something you already do, having a little sense of responsibility and ownership over yourself, time, and long-term health, such as weekly volume and not trying to take big hero weeks and eating your vegetables, like strength training two to three times a week, jumping two to three times a week.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Because hero weeks do not help you at all.
SPEAKER_01No, no, they just open you up for more liability.
SPEAKER_00If you're running 50 a week and you jump up to 100, that week did nothing for you at all. I don't think. I think just probably I don't think so at all. Yeah, someone could disagree, that's fine. I just yeah, I don't see how it could. Uh consistency, we've preached that since we started the show, correct, Rob?
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, don't be that guy that goes out once a month and tries to run 50 miles, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Don't do that. Andy Glaze can jump up to 300 miles because Andy Glaze runs 100 miles a week for five years or whatever. Like him running 300 isn't a big deal. Nuts. I mean, it is. It is, but not to his health and you know, running health, I should say. Yeah. Right.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00When you run 100 miles for five years, you could triple your distance, no problem.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So overall consistency is king. Tendons get pissed off, or just injuries as a whole get pissed off when you do too much too soon. So it goes back right to consistency. That's being king. That's like your greatest weapon against whatever we want to call it. Injury prevention, injury risk reduction, whatever. It's also your greatest weapon to improving your performance.
SPEAKER_00Agree. Yeah. And and I I thank you so much for
Closing, Contacts, And Next Steps
SPEAKER_00sharing all this with us, Abu, because you know, we we are hobby joggers trying to make things a little bit easier for us, uh, a little bit more enjoyable, always enjoyable when you're not injured. And you know, hopefully this you know resonates with some people and you know helps them out, and maybe they can improve their running efficiency, you know, 15% and and take a big leap if they've already knocked down, you know, nutrition, uh just general diet and strength training and all the ancillary things that go into one performance. So yeah. Thank you. Thank you again for joining us for part two of uh it was great to talk some UTMB shit talk with you. Uh absolutely I'd love to rag on them. Yeah, yeah. I have no problem. Hey, like I said, I'm I'm I'm going to enter OCC here. So I'm, you know, I'm a hypocrite, I guess. That's fine. Uh but yeah, I just, you know, I I think it's uh a net plus. So I appreciate it. And uh from the hobby jogger here, we will uh see you next time. Rob, you got anything?
SPEAKER_02I do. Once again, where can our listeners find you?
SPEAKER_01Um best is to find me on Instagram at Abu underscore Kergus, G-U-E-R-G-E-S. And for the Tri-State area people, I work at Evo Health and Performance in Freehold, New Jersey. So if you're banged up or just want to improve your performance, come on down. Thanks, sir. Yeah, thank you.