The Hobby Jogger Podcast

E59 | Running Recovery Insights with Dr Bonnie Wilder

• Hosted by: WeeViews & Branch Sauce • Season 1 • Episode 59

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Injury prevention isn’t about collecting gadgets—it’s about timing the right habits so your body can adapt, not break. We’re joined by Dr. Bonnie Wilder, DPT, for a clear, no-drama playbook that helps you feel better between runs and stay consistent through a training block. From simple desk routines to smart use of compression, heat, and ice, we map out what actually shortens recovery without creating new problems.

We go deep on the tools everyone debates: percussion guns, fascia scrapers, massage balls, and e-stim. You’ll hear when a massage gun makes sense, why scraping can help scar tissue but won’t solve root causes, and how to avoid overdoing pressure on the foot. We also unpack recovery shoes—why plush options like OOFOs reduce load after big mileage—and share an honest take on supplements. Magnesium often improves sleep quality, electrolytes should scale with heat and distance, creatine is an individual call, and ketones remain a cautious maybe until stronger evidence lands.

Sleep rises to the top as the biggest, most ignored advantage in your corner. Better rest boosts tissue repair, steadies your mood, and turns workouts from grindy to productive. We’ll help you pair smarter sleep with gradual training progress, not reckless jumps. Curious about cold plunges? Start warmer, go short, and use them to reduce that hot-weather puffiness if you respond well; hot soaks still win for relaxation and routine. We close with yoga and stretching that actually support running: dynamic before, static after, and consistent enough to matter.

If you’re ready to trade random fixes for a reliable system, this conversation gives you the blueprint—simple moves, better timing, and recovery choices that fit your life. Subscribe, share with a training friend, and leave a review to tell us which recovery myth you want busted next.

Connect with Dr Bonnie on her social channels @bonniewilder.dpt on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok & YouTube.

Casey Koza:

Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Hobby Jogger. I am your co-host, Casey Coza, joined by my fellow co-host, Mr. Rob Myers. Rob, how are you doing today? Doing well.

Rob Myers:

Excited for this podcast. The first one was a little over a year ago, and it's in our uh top five. If I look at the download list, yeah, yeah.

Casey Koza:

Often appears in one of our most downloaded shows of the week. Our guest, you know, we'll get right into it with Dr. Bonnie Wilder. Dr. Bonnie, how are you doing today?

Bonnie Wilder:

Good, guys.

Casey Koza:

Before we start, congratulations, Berlin Marathon.

Bonnie Wilder:

Thank you.

Casey Koza:

Saw you just uh got into the lottery.

Bonnie Wilder:

No, I got a qualifying time, so I had a little bit of an advantage.

Casey Koza:

Got it, got it. So you have the qualifying time because I I I just I remember you ran a pretty fast marathon not too long ago from your Instagram there. And uh yeah, so congratulations on that. I know it's uh it's a world major marathon, correct?

Bonnie Wilder:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, Berlin.

Casey Koza:

Nice. When is it?

Bonnie Wilder:

September 27th.

Casey Koza:

Okay. Fall marathon.

Bonnie Wilder:

Fall marathon.

Casey Koza:

You're originally from Connecticut, correct?

Bonnie Wilder:

Correct, yes.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, so I was uh I was home talking to my friends, Leanne and Bryant, and our mutual friend moved up to Connecticut. Loves it up there. Absolutely beautiful place, I guess, but large tick population, I'm hearing in Connecticut.

Bonnie Wilder:

Wait, wait, what population?

Casey Koza:

Tick, like flee like ticks.

Bonnie Wilder:

Oh, it depends where you're living, not where I'm from.

Casey Koza:

Okay, yeah, because she was complaining, like, oh, there's so many ticks and Lyme disease. And I was like, well, supposedly that's where Lyme disease started from Lyme, Connecticut. I don't know. Conspiracy theory, maybe I don't know, but I figured I'd ask someone from Connecticut if that were true.

Rob Myers:

I don't know, Casey. Look in your backyard, Northeast Ohio is pretty bad. It is very bad.

Casey Koza:

Yes, yes. So I figured I'd ask the the Connecticut, former Connecticut resident, if it was if that was true. I don't know.

Bonnie Wilder:

Downshore, yes. Ticks like to go down shore. I'm Midland.

Casey Koza:

Got it, got it. So Connecticut, still a great place to go. They do like it very much. But Dr. Bonnie, the reason we have you on today, not to talk about ticks, Lyme disease, and conspiracies, but to talk about recovery. I know it's something that I lack. I know it's, I guess, would you call it low-hanging fruit for a lot of people?

Bonnie Wilder:

Yes, for most people. For the people I work with, it's uh high-hanging fruit. They're doing the most for it. So I would say on average, people um they don't do enough injury prevention work.

Casey Koza:

Got it. I would certainly agree with that. So weaving in why we're doing this episode is we did a survey, we got quite a few responses, and a lot of it I was I I guess surprised about when it came to recovery and the things that people do. And I guess more shocking was what people don't do, right?

Bonnie Wilder:

Yes, yeah.

Casey Koza:

So got the survey, got the results back. The number one uh answer that we got of running recovery priorities is injury prevention. We'll couple that with reducing soreness. I think that's pretty fair because they're they're pretty close on the survey. So let's let's tackle the injury prevention first, because I feel that is kind of your specialty, your background, I guess what I'm trying to say is your most focused of what you do, correct? Correct. Yeah. So going into recovering injury prevention, what is the and I I'm I'm thinking of myself here, what is one thing that you see that runners neglect the most?

Bonnie Wilder:

That's a good question. It's uh they neglect doing everything outside of running, which is very vague as a response. But most runners just run and they do that consecutively, and then they find me, and then we end up having to fix those issues. So that's not a specific answer, more vague, but does that make sense?

Casey Koza:

Yeah, so they they run themselves, they break down, and then they seek you out saying, fix me. And there's not a simple fix, right? You have to go back to the beginning. I'm getting uh, I imagine. I don't, I don't know because I'm I I never run hard enough to really permanently injure myself, or not permanently injure myself, but severe enough. But would that be accurate that they break down and then hey, Dr. Bonnie, fix me, put me back together, and difficult to do, right?

Bonnie Wilder:

Right, right. They think it's very simple that they just need to strength train. I think that there's a whole aspect of social media where they're like, oh, if I strengthen, if I do squats and deadlifts and I I lunge, I will be completely undestructible. And I'm like, so you have to like un-educate them about that, like I guess re-educate them about that, about you know, strength isn't the only reason you're breaking down. You know, you weren't doing it before, but there's more than just doing very general, typical cookie-cutter type strength. I find that probably is the number one most important thing.

Casey Koza:

Got it. Yeah, I know I and you mentioned it, the people that want to just it, and I get stuck in that trap too, Dr. Bonnie. The we're gonna go squat, deadlift, and you know, do heavy, heavy things rather than this like working on the small supporting muscles, which I I know is super important. I see you post about it all the time. I wish, you know, I I don't want to say take it more, I I know how serious it is, but I guess for time, I you know, I am crunch for time. So what are some small things that people can do like during the day, I guess, to like build a you know what I mean? Like, because you have to start at the I look at everything as a pyramid, training, strength. What are some like just small little things that people can do when it comes to injury prevention?

Bonnie Wilder:

Well, let's take the vast majority of America, just in general, or just people in the world. Most of them are sitting down at a desk for eight hours a day. You know, maybe they eat up twice to go get lunch, go to the bathroom, go fill up their water bottle. But those minutes that they're sitting in a chair, they can do things like it's gonna sound crazy, but they can just do ankle circles at their desk, right? And they can do that for a minute. And that's just gonna help them stay loose so that when they stand up, it's not like everything aches, everything feels so stiff. The other thing is just standing up, as simple as it sounds. If you just stand up every hour on the hour and just stretch a little bit, like just get things moving, you're gonna feel much better at the end of the day. Or just like making, we call them in the PT or like physical therapy world, like glute sets, just squeezing your glutes, squeezing like different muscles, just getting them activated because blood carries oxygen, carries nutrients, and the more that you get those flowing to muscles, the better you're gonna ultimately feel.

Rob Myers:

Is there anything you can recommend while you're sitting in the chair at work specific to recovery?

Bonnie Wilder:

Yeah, heating pads. If you have like have like I always recommend moist heating pad over electric, just because moist has more um physiological benefits on an area, like on a muscle. If you are visibly inflamed, you can ice. You can wear compression socks if you have a very long run and then you go to work, like anything over like nine, 10 miles, you can just wear compression socks or compression sleeves. If you it's if if it's winter, you can just wear socks and no one will notice, but you don't want to keep them on for too long. But those are some pretty simple things that you can do, like at a desk.

Casey Koza:

Good. So so you are a fan of the compression socks sleeves then. Yes. I actually wore them for the first time in a 50K, and I didn't wear them for any other reason other than the the aforementioned ticks. I was I was worried, it was kind of that time in like the late summer, early fall. I was worried about getting ticks on my legs, so that's why I wore them. But I have to say, afterwards, my legs felt really good compared to what they have felt after other 50Ks. So I I know it's antidotal evidence, but I was won over by them.

Bonnie Wilder:

The reason you feel so much better is because the calf is like a muscle pump, it's essentially pumping blood through your through like your lower extremities. So if you put on a compression sleeve, it kind of enhansifies that process and makes it more efficient and effective.

Casey Koza:

Got it. So should probably put them on for long runs.

Bonnie Wilder:

Yeah, you you want to do a sock for long runs versus a sleeve is better for like recovery. I always mess this one up. It's one or the other. I believe it's sock though for during the run. And then sleeve is after for recovery, which really helps. And it doesn't have to be like a long sock, it doesn't have to go to your knee, it could just be like an ankle sock, but at least it's helping assist with more blood flow since it can really easily accumulate at the bottom of the ankle when you're running.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, and your feet do swell. Notice that my shoes are like skin tight by the time I'm I'm done. But yeah, that was a big, big change. And I, you know, thanks to CEP, those are the socks that I wore. They stayed up. That was one thing I was worried about is I didn't want my, you know, the old soccer socks used to just fall down and they're around your ankles. Now you have ankle warmers rather than compression socks. But those socks, they did stay up and thought they were awesome. And yeah, legs felt great, no calf soreness after, which was odd, especially for such a hilly, hilly race, the ups and downs. So yeah, glad to hear we're on the same page there. Yeah, I know one thing that I've been toying with a little bit is the percussion tool. And I gotta say, I'm I'm a little bit on the fence. I feel like sometimes it hurts me more than helps me. So I don't know, Dr. Bonnie, about the percussion tool. I got one, I think it's from Home Depot. It's pretty violent. It has four four modes, but one of them's pretty violent. Well, what is your take on the percussion tools? I know they're you see them everywhere. People use them before races, after races. I I don't think I've mine's ever left my living room. I just put it, use it while I'm watching TV, but what what is your take?

Bonnie Wilder:

We're talking like uh like a Theragun.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, you know, you have four modes and it vibrates and yeah.

Bonnie Wilder:

So the percussion tool, there's a right and a wrong time to use it. A lot of people use it, I would say at the wrong time. So another piece of education, right? Like you should not use it after a race. That's like the one time you should never use a percussion tool is after a race, because think about it, you just ran probably your all-out effort and you're very inflamed, your muscles broken down, you have a little muscle fiber, like like you have broken muscle fibers. That's what happens when you train and work out. So if you're gonna now percuss essentially that area and put a theragon to it, you're essentially making it more inflamed and it has to recover that much more. So it doesn't make sense to do it after, it makes sense to do it lightly before, just so you feel looser. But doing it after is almost counterintuitive. You're you're making things worse for yourself. In therapy, though, like when I used to work in person, I've since since our last podcast episode, I've gone virtual fully. But when I was in person, I um I would do it with every single client as like a like more of a mental aspect where it feels good, you know, they leave feeling better than when they came, but it there's a time and a place.

Casey Koza:

That makes really good sense not to do it after a race. Because yeah, you've already tortured yourself, tortured your muscles, you broke them down. You don't want to further break that down because you're now trying to go into the recovery. So pull the inflammation out, let it recover. So that that makes good sense. Yeah, I like it. It does. You do feel much better, and you can feel the blood just immediately flow to your quads, calves, whatever. So, yeah, I I think I'm a fan. I don't know. I don't know, Dr. Bonnie. I might be a fan. I don't know. I think I need more research on the percussion tool. Now, as far as another tool that I want to ask you about, I don't believe it was on maybe it was on the survey. Let me scroll down to it because I have seen, I know there's uh Molly Seidel, I believe, is the one who I saw using it. That's where I learned of it. It's uh a muscle scraper, it has a name. Is that right?

Bonnie Wilder:

The name of the actual brand.

Casey Koza:

No, fascia scraper, sorry.

Bonnie Wilder:

Fascia scraper, yeah.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, they just like like their aren't like their legs, they I what does that do? Does it work? Why do they do it? I I I that's one tool that I've never touched, I've never used. I is it fooy? Is it just like a product that online influences are pushing? What is it? Do you believe in it? Should I use it?

Bonnie Wilder:

Okay, so three-part question.

Casey Koza:

Um, only three parts. I thought there was like six parts there. Sorry.

Bonnie Wilder:

Maybe six. I'm condensing it in the brain. Um so first, uh, I do believe it has good benefits. I used to like swear by this when I worked in person, I would do it with almost every client that could handle the pain because there is pain associated with it, not excruciating pain, but the whole goal is when you have pain, when you have inflammation, you get scar tissue that comes. And that scar tissue, it should be pretty like your muscles are pretty uniform where they lie parallel to each other, but scar tissue does not. Scar tissue will lie however it wants to be. So think of like a jumbled pile of pencils, right? They're gonna be in different directions. That's how scar tissue lies down. So the whole purpose of this is to scrape it, scrape that scar tissue out of the way to make them parallel so that the muscle can more cohesively contract, right? So when you see they're called little patiki, little red dots that pop up, those are inducing an inflammatory process. So that's the whole point of it. Again, a time and a place, I would not do this before or after a race. That's not the time to beat up your muscle. But I do believe that there is benefit to it. The only caveat is since going virtual, I find a lot of people really heavily rely on this tool. And while it's great short term, it's not going to address the root cause. It's just gonna help the area that's like having pain momentarily. But when you go back to running, why is that muscle getting inflamed? Right? Is it getting inflamed because something else up the chain isn't working properly? Or is it truly the muscle is at fault? So that's where a lot of providers will neglect looking deeper into, and that's why I don't like the tool as like an end-all be-all answer.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, that was just because I I guess I mostly saw it in the I don't believe I've seen you use it. Have you used it anything?

Bonnie Wilder:

I don't publicize myself using it.

Casey Koza:

That would make sense of why I'm not because I didn't see you use it, and I have a list. If these people use it, okay, let's look into it. You didn't use it, so that makes sense why I I would not use it then. Okay, but I yeah, I used to.

Bonnie Wilder:

I used to use it not with myself, but like with other clients in person. But since I've just kind of like it, I don't see it the same way anymore. Because a lot of people use it as a moment, like as a short-term band-aid fix.

Casey Koza:

Okay, yeah. Because I I just I felt like it was an influencer thing. I don't know.

Bonnie Wilder:

And no, there's there's definitely research to back it up, but it's I I'll say it's it's very painful. It looks gnarly if you really get in there, and that can pose questions when you're out in public or it's summer, you have your like your shirt off, you're swimming.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, I try not to take my shirt off. Yeah, I don't don't want to scare anyone. Yeah, that's that was one thing, yeah. I had just seen since our last conversation that I I I definitely wanted wanted to bring up. And and I was surprised at how 25% of the respondents use uh a muscle scraper. So that was kind of that was kind of eye-opening to me.

Bonnie Wilder:

That's interesting.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, for me, I I I I get I have the massage gun. I should use it more. I I don't. But another one that I was surprised with the the massage ball, half of the people surveyed use a massage ball and knock on wood, my planter, planter fasci, fasci. Fascia, fascia, yes. So I've I've been very fortunate enough that I've it's always been very healthy for me. I think because I walk around barefoot a lot. I think that helps. I don't know. And when I played soccer a lot, obviously a zero-drop shoe, I think maybe, maybe did something. I have no idea, but I got a massage ball and just a lacrosse ball, and I was, you know, I was like, I let's see how it feels really good, but then I started to have problems with it. So I stopped using it because then it got sore, I think just from using the massage ball. So what is your take on the massage ball, which half of the respondents use?

Bonnie Wilder:

Yeah, a massage ball is good. I find that a lot of people don't know how to use it properly, like they'll just roll around in an area when, you know, I know a lot of people use it for the hip. For your sake, it's the bottom of the foot. There's a lot on the bottom of the foot. There's a lot of nerves, there's a lot of tendons, ligaments, there's a lot of thick fascia. So you have to know how to use it properly. It is a good tool if you know how to use it properly. Otherwise, you're kind of just like creating a lot of damage in the area, and it hurts too. If anything, I would suggest starting out with like a tennis ball, something that's a little bit more pliable and squishy versus something that's really hard, like a lacrosse ball. But I do support it. I do like it. I'll use it sometimes when there's like pinpoint issues, but rarely is there a pinpoint issue. That's why it's not my go-to.

Casey Koza:

Do you think that like the fact that I walk around barefoot a lot, does that help like strengthen that? Since I'm not using a shoe. I don't know. I just I feel like it's like it's very natural to walk around barefoot. I I'm not a barefoot runner, like I I see them out there. I know I'm that's not what I'm talking about. Just like walking around the house. I don't have house shoes, but like I'll walk up and down the driveway or what like you know what I mean. I spend a lot of time barefoot. I when I squat at the gym, barefoot. Do you think does that help? Do you think?

Bonnie Wilder:

So before I answer that, do you have flat feet?

Casey Koza:

I have no idea.

Bonnie Wilder:

Well, do your arches collapse when you walk, or right now, are they collapsed?

Casey Koza:

No, they're pretty archy right now.

Bonnie Wilder:

Okay. So I think that's the reason that you can get away with it. Um now you could ask a barefoot shoe company the same question, they're gonna have a totally different answer because that's their their world. But from like a physical therapy, like doctor background, from someone who myself has very flat feet, was born with it, there's nothing you can do about it. Like it's genetics. I would never walk around like flat footed with no shoe, no support around the house because that hurts. But I don't also get plannar fasciitis. So just because you walk around bare feet, I don't think there's a direct correlation between not getting foot issues. Like I use UFOs, those are my around the house or like ug slippers, which aren't as supportive, but they still work really well. I would say it's probably not great to walk around barefooted, but I don't think that's the reason you haven't gotten like PF plannar fasciitis.

Casey Koza:

Uh I see, I thought I was on to something. I, you know, I thought maybe I was ahead of ahead of the trend and was on to the next thing. Not barefoot running. I I I want to make that perfectly clear.

Bonnie Wilder:

I would never support that.

Casey Koza:

I would never support that. I think that is just a completely asinine thing. If you like that, good for you. I appreciate you. I think you're insane, but no, not not for me at all.

Rob Myers:

Yeah, I think on the first podcast, we spent about 15 minutes barefoot running and uh just the whole zero drop cues. So I think it was very clear how we feel on the first podcast. So if you haven't heard it, go back and watch one.

Bonnie Wilder:

Not a fan.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, I think I mentioned the guy who I see frequently. It'll be he'll have uh pants and a jacket on, but be out there barefoot. I just I don't even make eye contact. I can't.

Bonnie Wilder:

So bananas, yeah.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, yeah. Just I mean, just tearing up your feet is one thing, but you know. You got us into our next thing that I wanted to talk to you about, Dr. Bonnie, is the I guess the emergence of Recovery shoes. I had before I got into the running world, I had never heard of a thing called a recovery shoe. I just put on my shoes after I was done doing whatever it is I was doing and then went about my day. I had never heard of a recovery shoe. I had a pair of Hoka slides for a little bit. I did really like those. I actually wore them out to where I couldn't wear them anymore. Maybe I should buy another pair. But you are a fan, I know, because you just mentioned it that you walk around all the time in recovery shoes. What are the benefits and when and why should we be wearing recovery shoes?

Bonnie Wilder:

Yeah, usually it's after like a tough workout or cumulative miles, they stack up. And at the end of a week, like you're gonna feel that if you're not giving your body what it needs to recover. So recovery shoes is essentially like, you know, really foamy material, plushy material that makes it feel like you're essentially walking on a cloud, which the first time I put them on, I was like, this is incredible. So now I live by them. I would say they're really good at increasing your recovery time. So instead of taking like maybe a day to recover, now it's only like half a day. You feel more fresh, faster because you're not just walking on cement or wood, if that's what your house is made of. Right. So I fully support them. I would say Ufos are my top favorite. Hokahs, you guys know how I feel about Hokas.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, I know, and I I I can tell you the listener already, he's gonna demand a debate with you over Hoka. Uh it he's gonna be in my inbox. Yeah, I we do know how you feel about Hoka. I I hey, I listened to you, Dr. Bonnie, so I I get it. I'm I'm I am on board with you, not him. So, yes.

Rob Myers:

I was surprised by the lack of haters though from the first podcast. We did talk about Hokus as well. Just saying.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, I was actually kind of surprised by that too. I only got really one mean message about it, which uh, but so you okay, so that makes sense why we like the recovery shoes. Yeah, I think I'm gonna get another pair. I'm gonna try out the Ufos. I I did have a chance to try them on now that I think about it. They were much softer, I felt. Like it was would that make sense? The the hokas were a bit stiffer, firmer, maybe is the word. Or I just wore them out and I just now remember them at their end state rather than how they were at the beginning.

Bonnie Wilder:

No, hokas hokas are usually stiffer to begin with, and that also goes for their like actual shoe as well. That's why I like Ufos better. They're they have they feel like they're already broken in when you're putting your foot in them, which I like.

Casey Koza:

That makes sense. Yeah, I I think I'm gonna try the UFOs. I've heard good things.

Bonnie Wilder:

Yeah, stiff sandals, pretty cool.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, I like sandals because I like just like I said, I like to be barefoot if I'm walking around, you know. So easy on, easy off.

Bonnie Wilder:

Yeah.

Rob Myers:

So Casey, I'm just happy that I can put on my Crocs and when people make fun of me, I can look at them and say, these are recovery shoes.

Casey Koza:

I'm recovering right now.

unknown:

That's good.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, yeah. I yeah, I'm not wearing Crocs either. Uh I'll stick with my UFOs, I think. I don't need sport mode, Rob. Um, I I was surprised. I think I'm one of the respondents, 5% have never used a recovery tool. Although I have used, then I thought about it, I have used a massage massage gun. So I probably messed up this whole survey for everyone. Another interesting one on there, which I was surprised it was this high, Dr. Bonnie. The electrostimulation. And I know we didn't talk about that on the last episode, but every time I go to Vegas, they're trying to sell me one. I when I go to the chiropractor, first off, are you a fan of the chiropractor?

Bonnie Wilder:

Um, I'm indifferent. I I don't really have an opinion. I think some it depends on who they are. It's like a physical therapist. If they're good, they're good. If they're not, and they take a very standard approach, they're not great. So I have nothing against them.

Casey Koza:

Okay. Yeah. Cause I I I really like mine. Dr. Rock, I've mentioned a bunch of times in the show. I do have like a slight hip problem, and he helps me out. And one of the things he does use is electrostimulation. And from my research, it's it's fairly mixed on it. Uh, it certainly makes it feel better immediately. I it's probably just numbing the pain, probably, I think. But what is your take on electrostimulation? Do you do you recommend it? When and why?

Bonnie Wilder:

I think if someone has really chronic pain and nothing else is working for them, that's a really good tool that they can use. I don't personally own one just because I try not to rely on a device unless I was having years of pain. That would be the instance I would actually get one myself. But yeah, essentially it does kind of the exact research. I mean, this was a long time ago, I was in PT school, but the exact research is it's really like it's interrupting those like uh neuropathways. So you do essentially, in layman's terms, have numb pain. So if you want to have momentarily decreased pain, this is a really great way to achieve that. But it's like the minute you take it off, it's like back to reality. So it's it doesn't stay around. That's the issue with it. It's great for in the moment. You can work with it, you can put it on your back, it's really beneficial for the back, and they're portable, and that's also great.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, portable is good because it takes it anywhere with you. And the the immediate pain relief, I I think does help. I I mean, I don't know. I again I'm very layman. I just, you know, hey, I slapped it on my back, I didn't have pain. Good, good to go.

Bonnie Wilder:

Yeah.

Casey Koza:

Another thing, uh next will, I guess, you know, part of the survey and bringing up the results here, and I see a million different things on the internet, and I'm I'm asking you this more as a runner, but supplements for recovery that you would I will just say eat rather than you know, physical recovery. What do you think works? And I'd like to ask you about one in particular, because it it actually came in right where I thought it would on the survey, where less than 2% right around 2% use them, but ketones. I kind of got into a heated argument, found out the guy actually is the owner of the ketone company. Uh, I didn't like the studies, and I'm not gonna I'll see if I can find it, but I didn't believe in it. I don't believe in it. I think it's I'll choose my words very carefully here. I think it's pseudoscience. I think that's a good word we can use without like angering any lawyers. I didn't like it. What is your take on the ketones? Because I know it's starting to become a big thing.

Bonnie Wilder:

I have not dove into that world yet. I try to wait for a lot of research to come out before I ingest it in my body because you only get one. Uh, I don't really have an opinion on ketones, if I'm being honest.

Casey Koza:

Okay, yeah. Cause I you may not know this, but I won. Rob knows this, David knows this, but I won back in 2023, I was the free trail fantasy champion for UTMB. I came in first place and they sent me two packs of ketones. I yeah, yeah, which was like, yeah, though I think that was like the most expensive thing I won. I won shoes, like shirts, and yeah, that was it. And I did take them. I maybe because I'm a skeptic, they didn't work, and it's like a placebo that some people were feeling, but I just to me there was it was just nothing. It was I use as directed and uh just nothing from from that. But I'm just I'm a I'm N1, I'm a study of one. My opinion is means zero.

Bonnie Wilder:

So that's it, is it is something I want to try out more. Maybe I'll make it a part of my Berlin training, but we'll see. I I try to keep it as limited supplements and limited things I'm taking as possible because I just don't remember to take it half the time, if I'm being honest.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, that's that's that's big. Yeah, that's the same with me. I there's one thing on the list that I take every night. That'll be the next thing I ask you about because I think it benefits, and it's gonna lead into then the next topic, hopefully, but that's magnesium. So started taking magnesium because I did my research and it improved my sleep dramatically. Is that something that you recommend to clients? And is there things I should maybe should I only take it a few days a week? Can I overdo it with magnesium? Like I don't want to have negative effects from it, if you know what I mean.

Bonnie Wilder:

Yeah, I would I would definitely recommend it. I think every single athlete that's serious about their training and their health should get like a very in-depth, like complete blood cell count, and you should see like what's deficient on that if your test comes back with magnesium saying that is deficient. You should take it. But like there are a bunch of other benefits. It's not one of my go-to's to recommend, but I it does have really good benefits. And so I'm I'm definitely for it.

Casey Koza:

And and and 40% of the respondents do take it. Rob, do you do you take magnesium?

Rob Myers:

I do what I remember, which isn't that often, if I'll be honest.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, that's kind of the key, key to some of these. Uh yeah, the I don't know, the supplements, yeah. I I they they do work. I know then the next one I want to ask Dr. Bonnie about electrolytes, like LMT. I I do take it after harder workouts, longer runs, because I feel like I recover better. Could be in my head. I I don't know what as a runner, what are your feelings on that?

Bonnie Wilder:

Yeah, uh, I definitely support electrolytes. I think a lot of people might overdo it where they don't know how to measure it properly with the amount of exertion they're actually giving. Like in the summer, you should be taking a lot more than the winter if you live in the East Coast, for example. I would say my favorite is BPN. They just work well, they sit well, and they have really good flavors. But I definitely like those, especially with like runs that are over five, six, seven miles where you're sweating a lot more. I would I always recommend electrolytes, especially as you're training for a marathon or a bigger race where you're on your feet longer.

Rob Myers:

Is there a company you recommend for those runners that are a bit on the frugal side? Because LMNT is awesome. Uh Liquid ID is great, but they're all pretty pricey, you know.

Bonnie Wilder:

There's something called transparent labs. I'm just doing like a quick search on the internet to see too. But transparent labs, they are on the cheaper side because I know like a a bottle or a like a whole uh uh when you buy it, the BPN is like $45. These are half, they're like 20, 25. So those could be a better solution. But also you have to make sure it sticks for your body. I wouldn't buy something just because it's cheaper. I would make sure it like works for you and try to get samples, especially as you're at like running expos. Just try them out and see how it works for you.

Rob Myers:

No, I learned that lesson. I bought a gel that just said carbohydrate on the side. That's it. It did not work well.

Casey Koza:

Wow, I can't believe that. That didn't didn't didn't go down well. That's hard to believe. It's 99 cents a piece, Casey. What are you gonna do? Hey, I get it. It's worth it's worth it. Worth it to take a gamble. Now, something I don't know how this one didn't make like the list of write-ins here, Dr. Bonnie. But beer, I I feel that it's a pretty good recovery tool after a long run, hard workout, uh, you're getting you know, carbs back into your system, maybe a little painkiller. How do you and this is a serious question because you know, well, it's kind of a serious question, but you know, we go for our group run and buddy's got a, you know, buddy grant there's got a you know, 12-pack uh the latest IPA from the brewery in the trunk. Are we hindering our recovery with beer with the alcohol? I and I know don't overdo it, like we don't need to be hungover the next day, but how do you feel about beer after a long run marathon finish line beer? Everyone has Miclobaltra at them now. What is your take? Do you partake in a beer post-long run, post-marathon?

Bonnie Wilder:

I'm the first one to rip that piece off my bib, just to put that out there. That's the first piece that comes off my bib, no matter what race it is. Because you know how it says free beer at the finish line. I'm like, Kiri, you can take it. Like, just enjoy yourself. I'm like a f I just don't drink. So I I'm you won't catch me over there. I've never really drinking just for other reasons. Yeah. Um, something that destroys your liver, I don't think that's a great recovery tool. I know you're kind of like half joking about it. Hey, if it gives you joy, you only live one life. So like go drink the beer, but uh you'll never catch me doing that, and you'll never catch me also uh suggesting to do that.

Casey Koza:

Got it, got it. Okay, yeah, that makes sense. I figured I'd ask because I I mean there's a beer sponsor at every marathon. Everyone, like Berlin, I'm sure they have a beer tent at the end. I don't think I've seen one that doesn't have a especially in Germany. But yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Why would you you do all this work for 16 weeks and then yeah, you just kind of breaking yourself down further with like 2.8 grams of carbs or whatever. So you're not even getting that many carbs. Yeah, that's a solution. Yeah, if it's a juicy IPA for sure. But no, I haven't I actually haven't had a beer in almost a month. So yeah, I since my my buddy's wedding, I just I don't know. So I just don't don't don't haven't partaken it, but I get why you wouldn't. Yeah, it's fun and all, but yeah, it's it it does damage to your body. You're damaging your body. So yep. Dr. Bonnie does not recommend beer. I can get behind that. Uh is there anything else that you do recommend? I know the influencer sphere, which I occasionally gaze into on Instagram. Uh, I guess Instagram would be the only place I would look into it, but creatine, which is one of the most studied, most data that we have on anything since uh I think Mark McGuire back in the 90s said he was hitting all these home runs because of creatine, and people believed him. But very popular supplement. You know, there I've I've heard people recommend, you know, have your 80-year-old grandmother take it. How do you feel about creatine? Do you recommend it to clients, customers? Uh, do you take it yourself?

Bonnie Wilder:

No, I haven't dove into the creatine world yet. I think it's really difficult for myself to find a benefit in it just because either I'm not consistent enough with taking it, there's too many variables, like I'm doing too many things, so I don't know what's working. I don't personally take it myself. I don't usually recommend it unless we've kind of obliterated every other avenue. I'm like, okay, you should probably try taking creatine, but I also know there are people who swear by it. So I think there needs to be, it needs to be more on an individual basis where you're not just recommending it to everyone in the world. I think you need to understand their goals, what they've tried, and kind of like how their body is. Speaking of natural, right? I would say the one thing that runners don't prioritize enough is sleep. And this is actually something a lot of my clients don't do either, is get enough sleep. Cause like I'll say, Hey, are you like maybe they'll have a week where they're in more pain or they're not recovered as much. And they I'm like, hey, did you get eight hours of sleep the past week? They're like, eight hours? I haven't done that in like years. I'm like, well, how much are you actually getting? They're like, maybe like five hours. Oh that that blows my mind because I can't function if I don't get nine hours. So I think sleep is one of the like, you know, natural areas of recovery that people are not prioritizing. And if you get enough sleep, do you really need the rest? That's my question, right? And that's more of a rhetorical question that you don't have an answer to right now, but you can see where I'm going with that.

Casey Koza:

So, okay, yeah, I I think so. And I that was I was supposed to segue off the magnesium to the sleep, and then I got sidetracked because I can tell you one, since I haven't drank alcohol in about a month, and I've taken magnesium that my and I don't I want to ask you the Garmin sleep score, how you feel about it. I think it's probably the best piece of recovery data that I can find that in HRV, which I don't quite understand. I understand what it is, I don't understand how it's it ties in, but the sleep that I get from the mag I feel from the magnesium is way better than anything I've ever had. Like I feel recovered in the morning, I have way more energy. If I'm thinking what you're saying, like, do I then not can I do more because I'm sleeping well and I don't need like maybe a full rest day that I can stack on maybe another 45 minutes of work, you know, exercise, just because I'm increasing my sleep?

Bonnie Wilder:

Uh, that's a very complex question. I would say, I would say I can't remember the first question you asked, and I had an answer to it.

Casey Koza:

About ticks in Connecticut?

Bonnie Wilder:

No, that was like the first thing we talked about.

Rob Myers:

Okay, we're past that one, Jason. All right.

Bonnie Wilder:

Um oh, yeah, the watch. Uh, I personally don't sleep with a watch on. I feel like my wrist needs to breathe. So I don't have an opinion about the sleep score. I do know, you know, they've been through a lot of research, Garmin, and you know, I think Koros has it now too, maybe, but I don't I don't have an opinion on it because I don't use it myself. So I would I would need to use it myself to give an opinion on it.

Casey Koza:

Which thank you for that, because I think there's a lot of people that just spout opinions when they don't know what it is that's opinion opining about. But the sleep part, very important.

Bonnie Wilder:

Very, yeah. And I don't think you should necessarily do more just because you're fully recovered. I think you should gradually increase, kind of with everything in life. Like, don't don't go out there and do the most because you feel like you can one day, because the next day you're probably gonna feel it. And if it's not the next day, it's the day after you're gonna feel it.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, the the magnesium, it it and I felt I I I'll I'll give my opinion on the Garmin sleep score. I definitely can tell, like if I get a 47 and the next day I feel like just garbage, don't don't want to do anything. Uh, and then if I get an 87, I feel great the next day. Like I do think I personally think there's a correlation because I I'm an animal and sleep with my watch on. So uh yeah, but I I I think it's a good bit of information in the sleep. Yeah, I I I agree with you. I think it's probably the easiest thing that you could do rather than spending an extra hour at the gym, maybe go to bed an hour early. Don't don't scroll through Instagram looking at funny reels maybe for the last half hour of the day and just go to sleep. Are you someone who puts the screen down well before bed too?

Bonnie Wilder:

No, I actually find the screen helps me go to bed, which is kind of intuitive from what everyone else says.

Casey Koza:

Okay.

Bonnie Wilder:

Yeah, I'll usually just watch TV until I start dozing off and then go to bed.

Casey Koza:

Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, I I try to. It's hard. It is. Um but yeah, okay. So yeah, sleep. I I'm fully on board. Nine hours, I that's tough for me. I I'm like 8:15, 8. That's my sweet spot. Everyone's different though. So yeah, for sure. One other thing I like there's two quick things I want to ask you about. One of them, again, it's like looking into I don't think it's as popular now. The cold plunges um versus heat. I I my mom got injured playing pickleball recently. Terrible pickleball accident. And she was like, Well, how do I like, what do I do? I was like, Well, put the heating pad on it. Well, everyone's telling me to put ice on it. I said, Don't put ice on it. Put the heating pad because you want to bring more blood to the area to help you recover faster. Am I correct? Or did I just, you know, kind of put my mom down the wrong path and she's gonna be injured for like 14 extra weeks now? Because her son doesn't know what he's talking about.

Bonnie Wilder:

No, I have one question that's gonna help me answer this. Was she visibly inflamed? Like, was it swollen?

Casey Koza:

Like Yes.

Bonnie Wilder:

She was.

Casey Koza:

Yes.

Bonnie Wilder:

And where was the location again?

Casey Koza:

Ankle.

Bonnie Wilder:

Ankle. So if the one caveat is I would recommend heat for everything because a psychologically people respond better to it. And yeah, it's gonna increase the blood flow, all that. But if you're visibly swollen at that point, you do want to put ice on it because ice is gonna help reduce that visible swelling. That's very different from internal, like not visible swelling, where a lot of overuse injuries are just you don't get that visible inflammation, right? So that's where heat is better because it's more chronic at that point. Overuse is usually chronic and you want to improve blood flow, you want to get nutrients, you want to get oxygen to the area. But if it's visibly swollen, that's gonna make it worse. But doing it once, heat on an inflamed, like visibly inflamed area isn't gonna kill you. It's just not ideal, it's not optimal.

Casey Koza:

Got it. Okay.

Bonnie Wilder:

So not an extra 14 weeks, maybe just an extra two days.

Casey Koza:

Well, that's good. That's that's good. She'll she'll be back pickling in no time. But how do you feel about the cold plunge? I everyone's got one now. They've got the tub in the backyard, they put their stupid little hat on and they get in the cold plunge. I don't like to put myself in that much pain, so I've never done it. So I shouldn't have an opinion on it, which makes me a bit of a hypocrite from what I just said. But how do you feel about it?

Bonnie Wilder:

Yeah, so this summer was interesting because a company reached out to me and they wanted to sponsor the cold plunge on my accounts. So I gave it, you know, a try. I will say, preceding this, like in college, I did a cold plunge and I passed out inside the inside the plunge. It was really bad. So I didn't go into it with really a positive, you know, mindset. That plunge in college, though, was 30 degrees. So it was just my first time. It was a horrible experience. But the summer I set mine and started at 60 degrees and made my way down to 54. And I found that with the heat, I don't respond well to the heat. And I know a lot of my clients don't, a lot of people in general don't. With running it, I feel like I'm more inflamed and like puffy, if you will, for a longer period of time. So that helped me bounce back a lot faster. And so I think it's gonna be on an individual basis. A lot of people don't respond well to the cold, but if you do, this is an excellent like recovery tool. I would even throw some Epsom salt in there. That can really help, even though it's not like, you know, warm, it's still gonna be fine in a cold, water bath-ish situation. So I'm all for it. Uh, I wasn't before, now I am.

Casey Koza:

Got it. You've been swayed. You've been swayed. Okay, maybe I'll give it. I just uh Rob, you have you been in one?

Rob Myers:

Well, kinda. I mean, again, frugal runner, right? So you grab a bag of ice, you go home, you throw it right in the tub. You fill the tub up cold water, an indoor tub when it's connected to your shower. Yeah, and that's good, that's good enough, right? And then if you want to jump in the hot, you just turn on the shower when you're done, melt all the ice cubes, and you know, it's a whole cold and that cars are not cold. I don't know. It works really well. Big fan.

Casey Koza:

Okay. Okay, maybe I'll go buy a bag of ice after tomorrow's long run and and see how it I just don't like that much. Like it's it seems painful to me. Yeah, I don't know. I I'm a fan though of Epsom salt in a hot setting.

Bonnie Wilder:

Yeah, that's fair.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, I'm that's a little bit more relaxing, you know, a little bit a little bit more more my speed.

Rob Myers:

Yeah, you can cold plunge and still burn your candle. It's okay.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, I don't know if I could, because I think it's just I'd just be gripping and and throw some lavender in there, you'll be right at home. Yeah, I'm yeah, big lavender fan over here. Uh all right. So one last thing I want to talk about, Dr. Bonnie, then then we'll let you go. We've had a number of guests on that are big fans of yoga and and stretching. I keep saying I'm going to do it, the yoga. I just never get around to it. I'm busy, have things going on. Will I see a benefit injury, soreness-wise, from yoga?

Bonnie Wilder:

I think yes. Yes. Research does back this up too. I would say it's not it's like one tool in your toolbox, as most things are in life, right? Uh, I think yoga and stretching are really good. To see results, you have to be consistent with it. You can't just do it once and voila, everything has been fixed. But I do fully support it, and research also supports it. You just have to, I guess, find a good instructor.

Casey Koza:

Yeah. Yeah. That's well, we've had a few on that were, I felt, you know, very, very good instructors. I just, yeah, I I can't. Something has to give, and I just, I I guess I put it in the back of my mind and just don't don't get around to it. Rob is a big yogi now, I think. So he might have a little bit more insight than I do.

Rob Myers:

No, same boat. I know we promised a former guest that we were gonna sign up, and uh, I don't think we did.

Casey Koza:

No, no, and I know like me personally for static stretching, I this might be like one of the smartest things I'll I'll ever say in the show, but I feel like I lose a lot of muscle tension anytime I've done that throughout my life. And I know back playing, you know, soccer, my soccer playing days, that I would go from if I would just really concentrate on stretching, being loose, I would go from being able to we'll say hit like an easy 40-yard ball to now that same effort was like 30. Like I'd lose a lot of muscle tension. So I just never really bought into it. How do you feel about that for running?

Bonnie Wilder:

It's better post-run for sure. Pre-run, not great. You really want to stay dynamic, but I would say like your your typical ones, like hamstring stretch, figure four, calf stretch. You want like even the upper body, a lot of people have very rounded shoulders, just do the nature of work. You definitely want to do that. Yeah, like what we're doing right now.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. As we're sitting here rounding our shoulders, yeah. I I that's a big problem with my posture because I just yeah, you sit there and work, and you know, you're looking at the laptop, and yeah, yeah. That's just yeah, that was one that a friend called me as his kids, you know, getting to be a better player. And I was just like, I don't believe in it. I never did it, I still don't. I just hop in back in the car and you know, back to work or whatever I do, and I don't even think about stretching, but yeah, another another useful tool in the quiver. Yeah, you have a lot of tools in the in the quiver, Bonnie. So yeah, we we we appreciate your insight. I know our listeners greatly uh appreciate it. And yeah, thanks for doing this this whole survey and then coming on the the the podcast with us here. And you know, I it it helps me see things that you know what other people are up to and what's out there and how popular it is. And yeah, gonna buy a pair of UFOs. Gonna go down to the running store here. Second sold down here in the valley where I get all of my running gear. So I'm gonna go grab a pair of UFOs.

Bonnie Wilder:

It's good, though. Thank you. Your feet.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, but hopefully they do. Thank me. My my not flat feet, my well-arched feet. So yeah, yeah. Dr. Bonnie, thank you so much. We we certainly appreciate it here at the Hobby Jogger. You coming back on. Like I said, you were one of our most listened to episodes and and one that I've received the most comments about a little over a year ago. So thanks again for joining us. And you know, we wish you all the the best over in Berlin. Gonna look forward to to seeing how you do over there. I know you're gonna do great. And uh, you know, just out here rooting for you.

Bonnie Wilder:

Yeah, thanks, guys. Thanks for having me.

Rob Myers:

Yeah, absolutely. So, Dr. Bonnie, where can our listeners find you?

Bonnie Wilder:

You can find me on social media. Um, since we had our last podcast, I have made more social media accounts. So I now have a YouTube, I have a Facebook, um, a TikTok, and an Instagram. So it's all the same at. It's all bonniewilder.dpt.

Casey Koza:

Well, thank you so much, listeners. Check out Dr. Bonnie. She is one of the people that I listen to. She is not in the influencer sphere. She is an influencer, she's not in that sphere. She actually does things that work and make you a better runner, healthier person, and a better athlete.