The Hobby Jogger Podcast
Welcome to The Hobby Jogger Podcast, where elite athletes and ham-and-eggers lace up their stories. We explore the common ground that running creates from the world-class runner to the hobbyist hitting the pavement, trail or treadmill. Expect a blend of inspiration, laughter and the shared joy that makes every step count. Join us on this journey, where every run is a story worth sharing.
The Hobby Jogger Podcast
E43 | Trail Running Conversation with Hoka Athlete Jess Brazeau
What happens when gymnastic prowess meets mountain trails? Professional HOKA athlete Jess Brazeau takes us on her remarkable journey from the gymnastics mat to conquering technical downhills.
Whether you're fascinated by athletic crossover skills, mountain racing strategy, or the cutting edge of endurance nutrition, this episode delivers valuable insights from someone performing at the highest levels while maintaining remarkable humility about her achievements.
Ready to elevate your trail running knowledge? Listen now and discover what makes elite athletes like Jess tick.
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Hobby Jogger. I forget what number it is. Maybe we'll add that in in post-production, but this week I am joined by my co-host, mr Will Walmsley. Will preparing for the Laurel Highlands Ultra. How's it going?
Wil Walmsley:Weather is starting to warm up. Loving it Makes being on trails a lot better, but yeah, trails are whooping my ass right now.
Casey Koza:So it's's gonna be fun. Good, glad to hear, glad to hear you're having fun. Today we have an awesome guest on. I'm very excited about it. She is a former gymnast, current schemo schemoer schemo athlete, professional runner for hoka. Jess brazile, jess, how are you?
Jess Brazeau:good, how are you?
Casey Koza:I'm doing well? Are you? I'm doing well. Is it scheme what I call you a schemo or ski mountaineer?
Jess Brazeau:Well, the French wouldn't call me a ski mountaineer, but I participate in the sport.
Wil Walmsley:If I am a runner, you are a ski mountaineer.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, I guess by US standards for sure, but by actual, like competitive standards probably not. I'm not sure I'll ever go that route, but it is really fun sport.
Casey Koza:But yes, ski mountaineering You've placed in a couple races over there and here, haven't you? Yeah, yeah, that's very competitive.
Wil Walmsley:And it's a good region where you were competing at.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, I guess it just depends on the day, but I'm not horrible, but I wouldn't say I'm extremely competitive.
Wil Walmsley:So modest. How good are you.
Jess Brazeau:Not that great in comparison to the top European athletes, but I'm not horrible comparison to like the top, like European athletes, uh, but I'm not horrible, so I could, I could, uh, I could get a lot better at it if I actually like put my attention towards it, I think, and did a bit more skiing in the winter, but right now it's just kind of like a fun way to keep fitness in the winter and I grew up skiing, so yeah it's. It's a really nice way to get outside and explore an area in a different season.
Casey Koza:It's awesome. I've started to follow the sport and I got to get out there to some mountain, probably Seven Springs or Pittsburgh. I know they now allow it uphill skiing.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, and it looks like a ton of fun You're taking them off.
Casey Koza:The guys girls are pulling the skins off and super cool sport. Very intense, very cool to watch.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, I think it's really fun and yeah, the uphill part can be hard, but obviously you get to enjoy the downhill and it's a lot less pounding on your joints than running. So it's a really good way to just do some kind of lower intensity on your muscular skeletal system in the wintertime instead of just like running through winter.
Casey Koza:When you do that, you were, you go out for quite a while, don't you? Do you have long skis, I guess. Like what I mean? Like long run, a long ski session.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, yeah, definitely. If you're doing like more backcountry stuff, it takes a bit longer. Fortunately, I've had the opportunity to like follow some great people around in Irish before in France, but a lot of the skiers out there their minimum day is like three to five hours. Yeah, it's a lot.
Casey Koza:Just to stay warm because you start to sweat, like I can go out for an hour when it's cold here. When it's in like the 20s, that's it Like I can't go longer, cause then I'm sweaty and it just it's just not fun after that. So that props to those guys for staying out for that long. Jeez.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, it's a pretty gear intensive sport and you gotta be really nerdy. So I think my counterpart and Will's brother is pretty good with the the gear aspect and like layering appropriately and buying all the right pieces that it's going to keep you warm enough or cool enough on the way up but like warm enough on the way down yeah, yeah it's a problem.
Wil Walmsley:All I've heard on that is uh, it just makes, when you're running, the amount of gear you have. Oh yeah, those ways are managed now it does.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, truly, there's no barrier to get out the door after, like, ski season or bike season. Oh yeah, those ways are managed now. It does. Yeah, truly, there's no barrier to get out the door after ski season or bike season Running.
Wil Walmsley:you just put your shoes on and go. Who's better on the downhills? I've heard it's not even close.
Jess Brazeau:No, no, no, no. As the season goes on, Jim gets, jim's not. He's not horrible, he's really good for where he's started.
Casey Koza:I've seen videos. Yeah, jess, you're way better, nope hey, it's.
Jess Brazeau:It's a learning thing, though, because you grew up skiing yeah, yeah, that's the whole and once you you know what edges are and it's a whole very much like riding a bike very easy to big difference yeah, no, it helps a lot, having like kind of that muscle memory for years of being in my youth and skiing, and yeah, when you touch snow for the first time when you're 16, you're already at a huge disadvantage from all these kids who's who have grown up in the mountains and um, yeah, so I do have the valuable, uh advantage of time on my side.
Casey Koza:Growing up in PA they had skis on me at like eight.
Jess Brazeau:Oh nice.
Casey Koza:Yes.
Wil Walmsley:Have you skied in PA before?
Jess Brazeau:No, I've actually never done any East Coast skiing. I heard it's pretty icy.
Wil Walmsley:It's a lot different than Tahoe. Okay, reno, where you grew up I know I'm lucky.
Jess Brazeau:I grew up in a very great spot in the Sierras to ski.
Casey Koza:Stay, stay out there, yeah, but. But you get so good, so quick. Yeah, skiing out East, that it's when you go out. When we would take trips out to the West, it was like this isn't this is this is a lot of fun. This isn't chattering ice, and you know.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah.
Casey Koza:Yeah so definitely.
Jess Brazeau:It's kind of like trail running too out there. You guys have more of the technical skills than a lot of the people out West have.
Casey Koza:Yeah, that's so. When we were out there this past summer I was like these aren't, this is like what we call the towpath, this is like rail to trail stuff for us out here, because everything's, especially in PA and up through the Northeast, but super rocky routes, like you could be running downhill. I told Will this, you can be running downhill but still have to step up and over and out of like holes and you know, over rocks and, yeah, a lot different, running more speed. I guess where, where you're situated out there and flagstaff, huh oh, we got rocks.
Jess Brazeau:What's been out here?
Wil Walmsley:oh my gosh, the superstitions run out.
Jess Brazeau:There, I mean you you almost died, just kidding.
Wil Walmsley:No, I thought it was a run and it was most certainly a hike and I think, watching you, the uphills, I was like, oh, look at this, I'm keeping Jess within my eyesight. You know, on the uphill I thought I was doing good just by that. And then on the downhills I'm climbing, scooting my butt down a rock and look up and it's like where the hell did Jess go? Like she just bombed the downhills already at the bottom and it's just this technical rock that I'm having to, like, scooch my butt along and you're just hopping like a little mountain goat all the way down and I end up just dusting me on that. I'm like, well, yep, that's what today is. This is a hot, exposed hike for the winter this is a hot, exposed hike for the winter.
Jess Brazeau:All right, here we go. It was. It was hot that day.
Wil Walmsley:In your defense, I don't think you had enough water. I had a lot of appreciation, like I know how good you are in the uphills, we've done that. But then on the downhills technical ones, like you're just on a complete another level and it's like I I didn't think you could make that much time on the downhills. I was like, yeah, you're probably gonna kill time on the downhills. I was like, yeah, you're probably going to kill me on the uphills and that's where you make all the time, but the downhills you're even bigger gap. That part to me was really shocking.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, I don't know. I'll give you, I'll give you a chance to take me on a trail run in Ohio, sometimes, because the undulation of the short and steep climbs in the roots, oh, it's so much harder for me. My heart rate gets so high, it's rough.
Wil Walmsley:Oh my gosh, I mean that's what I was used to running the first time we ran at Lake Tahoe together. You know, we have our short punchy climbs at maybe quarter mile, half mile. I remember you're like, hey, you want to slow down, pal? And it's like I don't know, I'm used to going on these short climbs and that's the first time I've ever had three miles just going up. Yeah, it was about a mile in and I was walking and about a minute or two later you, allie and Ben are all past me. I was like, oh, good job, bud.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, this is a different style of running. It's hard, that's. That was like very, I think the East coast is a bit similar to, like the trails in Chianti, where, um, the race that Jim and I did this past, uh, march, but um, yeah, I don't know. Well, eventually I'll make it to Ohio and it'll be the the great equalizer and you can pummel me on some Ohio trails.
Casey Koza:Chiant, where you took fifth. Awesome, I followed along, I was watching, I was into it. I always tune into your races. I remember the wild strubla Is that how you say it? Strubel, strubel.
Wil Walmsley:Had some snow difficulties there. It seemed Push an inbuilt Casper and it went strubel.
Casey Koza:Yeah, I don't know if you know this, jess, but you were my introduction to what high-level trail running is.
Jess Brazeau:How is that so at?
Casey Koza:OCC, when we started walking up to see you up the hill, these guys are coming down and some women, but they're just beaten and blasted, Couldn't walk. And then a couple minutes after that, you're just flowing, still nice and steady down the hill, smiling and waving, and I was like oh, holy, holy shit, Like so some people can still run at the end of these things and like perform like that. So you were my introduction to not just a death march at the end of a race.
Jess Brazeau:Oh well, thanks, that's very generous. I think you just say yeah, it was.
Casey Koza:It was cool to see I was. I was, yeah, I was kind of really like why I really started enjoying the sport, cause up until that point I didn't other than me walking the last 10 miles at the Buckeye 50 K. I didn't really know too much about it, so yeah, oh, you've come a long way. Yes about it. So yeah, oh, you've come a long way.
Wil Walmsley:Yes, I have and you also didn't. You race will something out there. It creates thriller. December 2021 wilkipedia, see that's why we have him as a co-host just beat me by about 10 minutes.
Casey Koza:I believe you told me that you were talking to her at the start line. You started and then you never saw her again.
Wil Walmsley:Yeah, she did a nice warm-up at the beginning and as soon as the gun went off just took off and it's like oh, I thought that was a little aggressive but a little rocky wash or whatever. It's a flat session but it's one of those Arizona washes that I feel is technical, right away, seven-minute pace, just right out of the gun, nice and easy for you. I'm stepping on every rock.
Casey Koza:She's gotten over on you quite a bit, bud. Yeah, we need to bring it back to Ohio for her. Yeah, that's what. I'm saying yeah, I'm saying it's you'll see, it's just what you, uh, what you train your body to handle. For a hot, humid, rock or not rocky, but rudy mess of a trail run out here now, just you. You were a gymnast or like as a young I.
Casey Koza:I imagine that started very young like around seven years old maybe yes, one of my favorite sports, because annie and I were just watching the college finals and I said it doesn't matter where you go. You could go to a biker bar in the middle of Pennsylvania the roughest, toughest crowd wherever. If you put on gymnastics, everyone is going to say wow, I can't do that, that is awesome. So how do you think that is correlated to your trail running? Because I imagine there's quite a bit, because there's no bad athletes in gymnastics Like there's. It's crazy, it's insane the level of athleticism that gymnastics takes.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, I guess I've. I've actually never thought of it that way, and that's kind of true. There isn't like, of course, there's like varying degrees of athletes, like I'm not, I was never Simone Biles, but yeah, you can't, you can't really mess up where the consequences are super high. Um, so it's a very unique sport in that way that, um, there it requires like really small margins of error. I would say gymnastics, uh, I, I was a competitive gymnast for 10 years and I was on the collegiate track on my way, I was getting scouted by some, uh, colleges and I was looking into going to Boise State, but then I quit because I was super burnt out after all that time and I couldn't imagine doing four more years of gymnastics at that level and improving upon that.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, but I would say like the biggest benefits it's given me. I've gotten so many life skills from the sport, just learning like goals, work ethic, definitely a part of like why I seek to find like my best self in running and what I can do, like what is my highest end in terms of competition and whatnot. And then I would say like physical benefits, just like my aerial awareness is pretty good, I have pretty good agility, and like proprioception and awareness of where I am in the air and on trails. So I feel like that really benefits me with a technical running downhill, because I've seen that with some of my friends who didn't have that background, in getting into trail running and starting on like steeper, more rocky, technical descents, they really, really struggle and that was something for me that I didn't realize that came a lot more natural.
Casey Koza:Yeah, that makes sense because gotta be pretty. I mean, everything happens so fast in gymnastics. It's like a vault. I know the vaults, I don't. I'm not good with the names, I just enjoy watching it when it's on TV. So I'm not what was your? What was your event?
Jess Brazeau:I was not a powerhouse athlete so I was not good at vault. Um, I was okay. Bar is not good. I would balance and balance, beam and floor Two more artistic events I guess.
Casey Koza:Here's a question we weren't sure Is the floor bouncy? Yes, it has, springs in it, okay I thought so Because I was like this girl did not look like she tried that hard to flip like six feet in the air.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah.
Casey Koza:Okay.
Jess Brazeau:So it's interesting to think about actually and I kind of draw this parallel and I should look into this a little bit more between, like, running shoes and floor, the like the, the makeup of the floor now, because when I was first in gymnastics it was just like plywood springs and a little bit of foam with carpet on top, and there were definitely like not all floors were equal, some were like way bouncy and others just were horrendous. So now I wonder, like, are they putting like these kind of super foams in the floors, like they're putting in shoes? That could be interesting. I actually haven't looked at that and that's the first time I've thought about that.
Casey Koza:It would make sense, because you want them to go higher and it's probably a little bit safer. Well, yeah, higher and it's probably a little bit safer.
Jess Brazeau:Well, yeah, and all the tricks like from when I like 2008, 2007, when I was kind of at my peak of gymnastics, are vastly different than what they're doing now, Like the. They've really professionalized the sport and then you've just seen like the difficulty of the skill levels get harder and harder and harder and harder. Like some of the stuff you see on TV now. That wasn't even. No one had ever thought of even doing those things when I was in gymnastics.
Casey Koza:Yeah, it's it. I. I'm a very casual observer of the sport, but it does seem just from watching I'm the Olympics, they're on the NCAA finals Like I'm not going to say I know anything about the sport other than that, but it does seem that there's. But a lot of sports have been like that. I mean you know, I see, you know, like the BMX kids now are doing stuff that we didn't dream possible.
Jess Brazeau:Professional cycling too.
Casey Koza:Yeah, oh, the cyclists. I yeah, I have a professional former professional cyclist friend and he just talks about he's like. I don't think I could keep up in this era of he's like. I would have been like a mid-amateur at some of these races and I was a pro 20 years ago. So yeah, definitely yeah, things are moving warp speed even for trail running.
Wil Walmsley:It's kind of like that nowadays it is.
Casey Koza:It's now versus 20 years ago yeah, definitely don't you can't say that out loud it you know, around some people though it's a different sport now yeah, it is much different sport.
Wil Walmsley:A lot less is on is now known the unknowns back then and the secrets figuring it out. It's now out on the table.
Casey Koza:Best practices yeah, yeah, there's training, which that's what I want to know. How you train jess? Uh, because you give what you, you basically I don't want to say you coach will, but you definitely guide will at times I believe he's coach jess.
Jess Brazeau:My, my sister is coach jess, coach jay no I've uh, I've gotten like just random messages from will be like hey, I need to do a workout this week. What should I do? Like, uh, I don't really.
Wil Walmsley:Let me go look back at your strava and see how your training is going and where you're at I think the funniest thing is like after I go do one of your workouts, I go see like another running buddy or something that'll copy my same exact workout and go do one of your workouts. I go see like another running buddy or something that'll copy my same exact workout and go do it later that day or the next day.
Jess Brazeau:Oh, that's flattering so are you coached?
Casey Koza:Do you do you coach anyone? Do you have like a system that you use, or is it just?
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, so I um, when I first got into running, I had no idea what I was doing and I would just run everything as hard as I could and it just like felt good to like run fast, but then, of course, I was like injuring myself all the time, um, so I had a coach for a bit and then I had a few years where I didn't have a coach, um, and I was self-coached. And then recently I've had a coach since the beginning of 2023, which I like. I really like the structure. It's nice to have someone kind of lay it all out in front of me and I don't have to decide too much. Really, I just get to go pick where I want to run, which is my favorite part anyways.
Jess Brazeau:But I do collaborate with my coach. It's a really open dialogue, a great trusting relationship, um, which I think is like crucial to having a coach, and he has certainly helped with my um vertical climbing and I've just gotten so much better working under him. Um, I don't coach at the moment. I feel like I don't know, I might have some imposter syndrome about that and even like stepping into this role of like running for Hoka as well as like it's very new to me, so it's something that I've been like trying to work on, to accept that as my identity and, in a way, and that I deserve to have those opportunities like other athletes do, and so I feel like maybe, in time, coaching could be a thing, but I feel like I need to gain more experience still. I don't know.
Casey Koza:I think you have a lot of experience. I know I've asked Will in the past. I'm like dude. Could she just like tell me what to do? Like I, I just go out and amble about. I have no structure at all. I am easy someday. Okay, I feel pretty good today. Let me just run a little bit hard.
Wil Walmsley:I think when Jess was helping me a lot more, cause I guess I don't use you as much of a resource as I do.
Jess Brazeau:Well, you run marathons. Now, I know nothing about that.
Wil Walmsley:I've run one marathon.
Jess Brazeau:Okay, yeah, but you ran it so fast.
Wil Walmsley:I used coach Connie for that.
Jess Brazeau:No, no, no, I couldn't.
Wil Walmsley:I couldn't have trained you for that. That was Gardner. But yeah, when I started out one thing I loved about like getting you the other people I knew from the running community I'd ask them like, hey, what do you use for nutrition? And give a generic, blanket statement. Well, you got to test out a bunch of stuff everybody's different whereas I asked you and it's like you make that same qualifying but it's like, hey, this is what I use and if it doesn't work, here are a couple other options. But you at least gave starting points and for someone getting into running when I first started, that was super helpful. Uh, you're the first person that ever told me about what a bonk is. I remember when I tried my first ever 10 mile run. It's like, yeah, something about an hour, and all of a sudden it got really, really hard and you just started laughing Like you bonked. You got to take nutrition.
Jess Brazeau:That's an essential, essential word for running.
Wil Walmsley:And now I've enjoyed running a lot more, because now I look forward again to eat along the way.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, it is. Snacks are great, yeah that is a good.
Casey Koza:I figured that out now for this next race. I figured out the eating part. I figured out the strength part. Now we'll see if we can make it all go together at one time. We'll see.
Jess Brazeau:Well, email me later later, casey, if you're interested, I could. I would certainly be happy to. If you want to bounce some ideas off or need some guidance with a training plan for a race, I appreciate that and I will now one question I have.
Wil Walmsley:Like when you go train for something, do you look at the course, elevation and the length of it, like how much does that impact? Like your weekly mileage and weekly elevation like targets?
Jess Brazeau:A lot for me.
Wil Walmsley:Do you know like what those ratios would look like?
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, I well, I don't know. It's interesting you say that because I've actually kind of looked into other people's training and a lot of girls that are um, a bit faster than me don't do as much vert as me, which is really impressive to me. And I just I'm like, well, how do you, how do you keep that muscular endurance, strength if you're not running those long ascents and descents? But also, these are people who have like a bigger aerobic base than me, have been running since like middle school or high school. Um, so it's just they're coming from a really different background. So I do races that have a lot of vertical gain in them.
Jess Brazeau:So I do think about, um, the amount that I'm climbing per week in relationship to the race itself. So I, at least on my long runs, I'd like to do at the minimum 50% of the vert that's in the actual course. Usually it's a lot more and I don't know if I can replicate a race within like 70% of like the distance and vert ratio of the race. I'm pretty happy. So a lot of the times, like if the race is going to be 10,000 feet of climbing in a 50K, I try to run around like between 16,000 and 18,000 feet of vert per week just to really like get my legs ready for that kind of thing, and luckily I'm in a place where I can do that. I know not everybody has access to longer climbs and yeah, it gets. It gets harder and you have to be more creative when you do have terrain. That's not like you're not able to replicate what the race conditions are going to be like and the climbs are going to be like we have a treadmill.
Wil Walmsley:We have people that do hill repeats, where they will do 100 kilometers just running up and down a hill oh gosh, that's mental and it's a quarter mile hill, so it's a lot of reps that would take the joy out of running for me.
Jess Brazeau:But I also really commend them because I could never train like that and that is seriously some tough mental strength.
Wil Walmsley:I think they fully live up to trail runner general stereotypes.
Casey Koza:We have one hill that it's usually done on down here in the valley. I know when one of them's on it because there's rocks at the bottom of the post so they can count their reps with rocks. That's so funny. I mean, if I lose track of the count, I feel like maybe I'm done their reps with rocks, that's not fine I mean, yeah, like if I lose track of the count, I feel like maybe I'm done.
Jess Brazeau:I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm kind of in that same vote. I do understand, yeah, like I would probably be that person if that was the situation I was in you make do.
Casey Koza:I was in so you said that you have. You said you got faster on the uphill correct Cause you took fifth at the ascent. I hope I signed up for the right race this year. Uh, vertical, is that the vertical kilometer? Is that the ascent head?
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was the the one at broken arrow last year.
Casey Koza:Yeah.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah.
Casey Koza:So you, you got. You said you got faster. What did you change in your training? Do you think that made you? Because I hear people ask that all the time how do I get faster running uphill? I don't know. I would say just run uphill more, but I'm not a coach.
Jess Brazeau:That's honestly what I did and that's what worked for me. I know I know runners that were ahead of me run a lot flatter intervals in training and a lot faster. I mean, they're still doing hill work, but my coach had me focus a lot on a lot of hill repeats that were over a 15% gradient.
Casey Koza:Okay.
Jess Brazeau:Like steeper, steeper, shorter stuff. So it would be like two minutes, three minutes, two to six minutes of gradients that were like 15 percent or more.
Casey Koza:Okay, because I I think after 10 I I'm just power hiking, like 10 is right. After that it's just like yeah, I don't know that we're gonna make much progress so yeah so, okay, 15, that seems to be like the like a good grade. Then tread, I can treadmill it.
Jess Brazeau:So yeah, I mean you just like gradually. Well, start maybe, I don't know. My advice would be start a time frame of an interval, so like what can you maintain at 15? And if that's only starts off at 30 seconds, then just, whatever you, however long you can run at 15, whether whether, yeah, it's 30 seconds or a minute do a few repeats of that and gradually try to increase the time.
Wil Walmsley:So do you think it'd be better to start? You know, see how long you go at 15%. Or would you go the other way of hey, let's go from 8%, next week 10%, and you run for like 20 minutes at that and then you just keep trying to up the elevation.
Jess Brazeau:I guess it kind of just depends on how your legs handle each percentage Because, like Casey said, like above 10% he's hiking, like he hasn't gotten the muscular endurance yet to keep a run going.
Wil Walmsley:Yeah, that's where I'm at, too, not for very long. I'm just like 50%. That's where I start practicing too. Not for very long, I'm just like 50%, that's where I start practicing my hiking.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, no, I mean it's good to practice hiking too at that. In all honesty, I do, I did. I did hike in that vertical ascent. I did not run the entire thing.
Casey Koza:That is wild. Those races, to me, are the wildest of like human ability, cause no one wants to run up a hill, let's be honest, like well, clearly they do, because it's like there's a wait list for it. But it's you just because when we will and I were out there with david and jeremy and we're just I'm looking at it. I'm like people actually, because I watched it the week before people actually ran up this entire thing and to me that's the craziest thing we do in this trail running sport is the vertical ascents, the vertical k's.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, no, I mean it's interesting. Yeah, I think it all depends on just what your body is most efficient at. Like Jim, he's more efficient at running up 20% gradients where I I can power hike them faster than I can run them.
Casey Koza:I'm a downhill specialist. I rely on gravity a lot.
Wil Walmsley:That's how I'm just an aid station specialist. If there's food there, I can make that disappear real fast.
Jess Brazeau:Hey, you got to lean into your strengths.
Wil Walmsley:Yeah.
Casey Koza:So and I the wild screwable that I mean. That had a lot of vert too. I don't know how that course was, but, niece, that was your last, yeah you've ran some huge vert races and then you're signed up for broken arrow.
Wil Walmsley:Are you doing the 46k this summer?
Casey Koza:yep yeah so is that. Is that a hometown race for you?
Jess Brazeau:is it what?
Casey Koza:is that a hometown race for you?
Jess Brazeau:uh, yeah yeah yeah, my family's all in the region and I went to university of nevada, reno, and that's actually yeah like tahoe region and kind of auburn trails and on the western states trail. That's where I got my introduction to trail running, which is really cool heck of a place to do it I know yes, I, you are.
Casey Koza:It looked like I think I saw that you're signed up for it, so that's your. Is that your next race, at your next time on the start?
Jess Brazeau:line. Uh, yeah, at the moment that's uh the ascent in the 46k or what I'm racing. Next I might throw in a small race in may. We'll see, um, how training's going. But uh, those are my bigger goals and that'll kind of just dictate the rest of my season, based off of how I do at those races. So, um, I don't really have any sort of summer races planned yet or what I or I'm not even signed up for anything past Broken Arrow, in all honesty, um, just to see how that goes Um, and if I make a world championship team. So we'll see.
Casey Koza:Is. Is there a? Is that a qualifier for the world championship?
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, so the 46 K is a qualifier for the short trail team Um, and then the ascent is a qualifier for the vertical sweet so is this like top three, top two um, I think it's top, I think it's top three for the 46k and then three resume spots, um, and then the ascent is, I think, just the top top four okay yeah very cool.
Casey Koza:And the finals. I know this because we've talked about it on this show austria uh, they're in austria last time, ah where are they? Pyrenees in spain, okay, sp.
Jess Brazeau:Spain.
Casey Koza:Did you know that?
Wil Walmsley:Will I knew it was in Spain. Of course you did. I've talked with my brother and sister. I figured you knew I had an unfair advantage on that one.
Casey Koza:Well, that's awesome, Jess. I'm hoping you make it. I'll be rooting for you we might be out there for it for the vertical ascent.
Jess Brazeau:I'm not sure, oh, you might be out there for it for the vertical ascent?
Casey Koza:I'm not sure. Oh, you might be out there. Yeah, we're thinking about it making it a full week. It's awesome out there. We had a blast in trucking.
Jess Brazeau:It's a really great week of, yeah, running and sport and it's really fun and it's such a nice place in the summertime too.
Casey Koza:Oh, it's beautiful and the area is awesome. The people were great, the beer was really good. That's what's really really important to our trips. That we take is the beer.
Wil Walmsley:Right Will yeah. The only thing I missed out on beer related was the beer mile. Yeah, yeah I hurt my toe so I was out of the beer mile. Jess, are you doing the beer mile this year?
Jess Brazeau:A beer mile is like pure torture. I would rather go run a vertical than said a beer mile is like pure torture. I would. I would rather go run a vertical than do a beer mile. I am so slow. I've done one beer mile and I think it took me like 13 minutes and it was so awful. Like the running part wasn't bad is the chugging, the beer part, where I was just felt so nauseating funny part about ohio trails is you have to chug beer. Oh, yeah, every, every long run you do.
Wil Walmsley:No, every hill Interesting.
Jess Brazeau:That's how you guys get so strong with your guts.
Casey Koza:Can handle any nutrition with that. That might be true. Actually, that's a good point. Yeah, while we're on the topic of tactics, cause I'm trying to pick up some stuff here this wasn't supposed to be a quiz, jess, on how to get faster episode, but you know, here we are at the hobby jogger. So how do you handle the in-race nutrition like? What is your like? How do you build off of that? Is it like? Do you like the liquids, the gels, both, both.
Jess Brazeau:I like both. In all honesty, nutrition's so hard, it's so varied between person to person and it's so individual. It's also really varied on climate or how intense you're running if it's cold, if it's hot, if it's humid, if you're in your threshold zone, if you're going easier. It just it really depends. So, uh, the my biggest piece of advice and I by no means nail nutrition. Actually, at Keontae I kind of had a really bad like last eight miles because I didn't get in enough nutrition and I kind of had a pretty epic bunk the last eight miles and that cost me actually getting fourth place. So yeah, I was, I was chasing third up until mile 20 until I kind of unraveled. But my biggest piece of advice is just to train your gut as best as you can, like simulating a race environment. So when you have a workout, treat it like you're in a race.
Jess Brazeau:So take a gel 10 minutes before your workout. Take a gel or drink liquids in between intervals and stuff. If you're trying to get in. If your workout's like 90 minutes, if you're trying to get in however many grams of carbs per hour, try to do that during your workout. Of carbs per hour, try to try to do that during your workout. So that's my. My biggest thing is I really try to fuel as if I were fueling for the race, and whether that be like long runs, I'm trying to hit like x amount of grams of carbs per hour and that's what I want to try to do in the race, and then or like I'm trying to train my gut to take a gel midway through the ascent, which is like a super high, intense, 45, 50 minute effort.
Wil Walmsley:When we tried it it was about an hour and a half for me.
Jess Brazeau:That's not bad.
Wil Walmsley:I almost made it to the top two, but lightning.
Casey Koza:Yeah.
Wil Walmsley:There's a lot of lightning out there that day, yeah oh yeah, that's pretty scary.
Jess Brazeau:Luckily we did not have to deal with that so you mentioned carbs per hour.
Casey Koza:I know that seems to be a hot button thing to talk about these days. Um, I'm, I'm just, I'm just simple, like I'm not simple well, I am simple but not like that. But and how I think in the approach. But I think there's got to be just a limit that your gut can handle and absorb through the intestine oh, totally, yeah, yeah, definitely whereas if you push past what you can actually use, I feel like it's got to come out somewhere, and probably not a good fashion.
Casey Koza:Um, where do you sit on that kind of do you? Do you have it dialed into your hourly?
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, yeah, no, definitely, um. So another I mean it's hard because you can't just strictly think of, uh, grams of carbs per hour. You also have to think of the amount of liquid that you're in taking as well, because some people require more liquid than others to kind of like offset, um, the amount of carbs you're taking in. Like yeah, it's really hard. Um, well, I mean, luckily I have, um, I mean, I studied nutrition, dietetics in uh, at university and, but not sports wise just kind of more of like a clinical health setting. So I understand a lot of the science behind it, which is great. But I also work with like a sports nutritionist too, because I mean I could try to figure it out myself, but it's just easier for someone who's been doing it and kind of has seen the trends and stuff with competitive running and whatnot.
Jess Brazeau:But yeah it, it all. It's like. So like individual based. Like Jim takes in more grams of carbs per hour than I do, and he doesn't typically take in a water bottle, whereas I like to do like a water bottle, say, full of like 60 grams of carbohydrates, but then I have another 500 milliliter flask full of water and then I supplement with gels in between and I don't know try to get between 70 and 90 grams of carbs per hour, like 90 is really high. I can do that in training runs because I'm running a lot slower, but in races it's really hard.
Casey Koza:I can't, after like three hours 90, because it just things aren't working the same, you know, I mean.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, no, I think it's hard.
Wil Walmsley:Yeah, how important is sodium in there to?
Jess Brazeau:you Very important. Have you had a sweat test? Cause yeah, I've had a sweat test. Um, I'm not a heavy, I'm not a super heavy sweater, fortunately. Uh, so I just have to. I do minimal sodium supplementation, but it's not just knowing, like your milligrams of sodium, uh, that you sweat per liter of sweat. You also have to know how much you sweat. So that's the part where I've kind of just been guessing, because I haven't been actually figuring out how much water loss I've been losing per run. And then that that's like a whole other like scientific thing on its own where you're weighing yourself before and after runs. You can't go pee during the run. Your sweat loss rate is different for different temperatures, like it gets uh, gets pretty intricate. So I haven't like delved into that part yet. So I'm kind of just like guesstimating just based off of my milligrams of sodium. The sweat test provided, which is like not super scientific.
Wil Walmsley:But I'm like the engineer me, I'm like it's not that hard. It's sweat rate plus sweat concentration. It's two, two variables. Great changes on the weather.
Jess Brazeau:The concentration doesn't yeah, but you have to just be strict with, like, weighing yourself before and after runs and making sure you don't drink anything after a run and you don't pee before you weigh yourself so, so I take the beers out.
Wil Walmsley:So what you're saying?
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, you can't. You can't drink your, you can't drink your beer during your run. No, I think there's some where you go like like hour long runs, you go like fasted and you don't drink or eat or anything. I think long runs you can still drink fluids and you can still weigh yourself before and after and there's some valuable information in that and then you just kind of calculate the how much fluid you took into the in during the run. So, yeah, so this is why I have a sports nutritionist, because I don't want to do any of this. Yeah, like when we got a sweat test through reviews.
Wil Walmsley:And yeah, pretty much we were allowed to drink water, but they tracked how much we drank. And I'm like, yeah, exactly much we were allowed to drink water, but they tracked how much we drank. And I'm like, oh yeah, exactly.
Jess Brazeau:I feel like if you really like the nitty gritty science stuff behind it, it can be a really fun project for people to do. It's pretty simple. It's not like super complicated or anything. It just takes time and it's tedious. Yeah, I'm with you, Jess, on that.
Casey Koza:Like just someone, please figure it out and point me in the right direction. And point me in the right direction, but it is. It kind of speaks to what Will said how far the sport has come in 20 years.
Jess Brazeau:Well, yeah, definitely no one was measuring their sodium like 15 years ago, a decade ago even.
Wil Walmsley:I think I remember hearing like Scott Jerk on a podcast, you know, ultra trail legend, and he was talking about trying to get more calories in an hour, because that's how they measured it. And he tried olive oil, because fat nine calories per gram whereas carbs four. He's like oh, this is, this is the secret sauce right here. It just caused all kinds of gi issues, yeah, yeah I can't even imagine I cook my eggs in olive oil. You tried it. Nowadays we know that that doesn't work.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah.
Casey Koza:No.
Jess Brazeau:I feel like the top high-end caliper of the sport in trail running and we can relate it back to professional cycling. These athletes are not taking in oil, they're not fat adapted athletes. Like they are high performance carbohydrate going straight to their muscles and filling their glycogen sources.
Casey Koza:Yeah, a hundred, a hundred percent, like it's. There's no gimmick, it's just yeah, it's yeah. Glycogen glycogenic stores.
Jess Brazeau:I say glycogenic stores, glycogenic stores, yeah, glycogenic stores, glycogenic stores yeah, I'm from pittsburgh.
Casey Koza:We don't pronounce things right there, so you gotta bear with me. Yeah, bad pronunciation also. Another thing that's changed a lot, jess, and you're now a professional runner for hoka. Congratulations again.
Casey Koza:But the shoe technology has oh yeah warp speed, uh, light speed past what it was, what even I'll say five years ago, it seems from my little bit of research correct, and your company, hoka, is on the, definitely on the forefront of that. We did a last episode where we talked about the tectonics three. Um, is that a shoe that you wear, or do you like one of the other shoes out of the Hoka lineup?
Jess Brazeau:I wear it occasionally. I well for verticals. For me I really don't. I don't, I don't feel that it's necessary to have a carbon shoe. I want something with more tactile feel on the ground and something that's grippy and I can push off of um and really just like feel my steps, because it's really important not to like have any sort of I don't know and also the. I just want like a really just like lighter shoe that just doesn't feel like a shoe on my foot when I'm running uphill races.
Jess Brazeau:Jim and I have plenty of disagreements over this because he's a little bit more on the cutting edge of shoe technology than I am and I mean I think there is a place for carbon plates and whatnot. But speaking with, in January we had an athlete summit in Portland and we got to meet with like the a lot of like the shoe development and innovation teams and they don't know the answer of how beneficial a carbon plate is for trail running. They do know that the carbon plate holds the foam in place and the foam helps with not having your legs Like it helps with fatigue resistance in your legs. So they do know that. But in terms of like propelling and actually like making you faster. Um, outside of like the fatigue resistance stuff, they're they're not really sure like how the shoe performs because, like the carbon road shoe was like developed completely based off of like kind of like gate analysis and propulsion and stuff on a road, like the energy return on a road and on a trail it's just so varied and so different. I feel like that it doesn't, the shoe doesn't work the same other than, like the fatigue resistant aspect and that's like kind of what I got out of them is that they just like don't know, in terms of trail running, like how much these shoes are helping. Yeah, Other than that kind of like fatigue resistance fact, because there's just so many variables.
Jess Brazeau:I think the Tectonics 3 is it's a great shoe. It's a little big for me. I don't like how clunky it is. So I've actually like saved a kind of a stock, backstock of the Tectonics 2, which I think is in my opinion, I like it better. It's a little lighter, it's snappier, it just feels like it's more responsive, where the 3 to me feels like a little bit more clumpy, but it's still like a great shoe and I've still done plenty of runs in the Tectonics 3. I just prefer to race in the Tectonics 2.
Casey Koza:Yeah, I like the 2 a lot too. I know what you mean. It does feel a lot snappier, like I don't want to say lighter, because it's not lighter the same weight, but it's just I don't know.
Wil Walmsley:It does feel different, like yeah I get more like race mode when I wear my twos yeah, oh, I want to try pushing going fast whereas the threes it's like it's a comfortable efficiency, so like you end up going fast yeah but it doesn't have the same like oh, racing mindset, Like I want to go fast. I mean, I don't know. That's what I feel like when I wear the twos on that snappy feel I'm still as an all two fan.
Casey Koza:Yeah.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, I love this. That's my favorite shoe ever.
Wil Walmsley:You're the first person who's in all twos I saw Jess.
Casey Koza:Yeah, yeah, that's my favorite shoe ever. You're the first person in all twos I saw jess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you definitely were. That's my. That's. That's what I wear out in laurel highlands is. This is all, too. That's just about the only shoe I'd wear out there it's a great shoe.
Jess Brazeau:I mean it's not. It's not a okay, I'll say it's not a great ultra shoe. Some people wear it for ultras. I don't think I don't. I could maybe do it in a 50k. I think my feet would be pretty tired and I'd have to train up to that. Usually past like two and a half hours they start getting pretty tired. But I do really love that shoe. I think they've they've stopped the production of it for now. I've been told that there is some innovation on maybe as an L3 in the future and it would be cool to see the progression of that shoe. I would like to see maybe a little bit more foam in it so you could take it a little bit farther, but without getting rid of, like the classic feel of the Zinal, how it sits, how you sit lower to the ground, how you can feel the ground a little bit more, like the overall integrity of the shoe. If there was a way to maintain that with adding a little bit of foam just to take it further, that'd be cool. Yeah, it's my.
Casey Koza:Rocky Rudy mountain shoe, I guess yeah.
Jess Brazeau:No, it's great for that. The lugs are perfect and the V-Bram's super sticky and, yeah, like if you rolled your ankle in it, it's not catastrophic because you're not like this high off the ground.
Casey Koza:That's exactly why I wore it for the Laurel Highlands 50K last year off the ground. That's exactly why I wore it for the Laurel Highlands 50K last year. And that's exactly why because I like to protect my ankles and be able to walk afterwards.
Jess Brazeau:So, yeah, that was like to me that was the perfect shoe for the stuff that we run around here especially.
Casey Koza:but yeah, I'm happy to hear that they might be working on a three. That's breaking news. Look at the hobby jogger. We're breaking news here, will Good job.
Jess Brazeau:Breaking news. Look at us, man.
Wil Walmsley:Look at us. So, going back to the efficiency on the carbon plates, do you think it would make sense, off of that theory, to train in non-carbon plated shoes for your long runs, build up that muscular strength and then, when you go to races, then incorporate the carbon plate?
Jess Brazeau:So now it's like, hey, you have that efficiency and you've already built up almost like super bodily efficiency before that. I think a lot of runners are actually doing that to just get like, yeah, a lot of their muscles a bit stronger and more resilient, instead of just relying on like the softer foam to kind of cushion everything. Um, I think people are doing that, but I, I don't know, you're the engineer.
Wil Walmsley:Yeah, oh, you said that and like my head's kind of spinning on that and I mean I do think training in the carbon plates, there is something there because the recovery you're able to get better quality miles throughout the training off of it, right See?
Casey Koza:I looked at it as kind of like the. I guess it's similar to the baseball player. When he warms up in the batter's box he puts the donut of the weight on and that's like your trainer shoe. And then the little donut off when it's race day, and that's when you put the carbon plated fat. Go fast, shoe on.
Jess Brazeau:Yeah, I mean I don't think it's a bad idea at all. Honestly, I try not to train daily in carbon-plated shoes but with the Tectonics 2, since the foam's more stiff, I feel fine training in that one daily. It's just like these softer EVA foams or Pee-Bax foams. I feel like, yeah, kind of I don't know, they make you soft. There's no like, there's no rationale. Well, I don't know if there's rationale to that either, but obviously fact check me. But I've also heard like physical therapists and stuff just speak to like the more odd weird injuries people are getting running in these softer foams more often. So I don't know, I don't think it's a bad idea to not train in a carbon shoe or a soft foam shoe and then for like your workouts or maybe a long run or two, wear it and then race day it's. It's there to help you.
Casey Koza:Yeah, and it the foam certainly helps on the downhills, like I have found, like it's a huge difference to how I feel after a hilly, mountainous 50K Just from the downhill pounding that seems to take a lot of the impact shock maybe.
Jess Brazeau:It definitely does. Yeah, 100%, you're right.
Casey Koza:Because I felt really good after a grindstone 50K and there was some real long downhills in that. I also got stung by a bee in the thigh, so that could have been part of it too. That helped speed up the process of the healing.
Jess Brazeau:So I don't know uh, I like that would hinder it, but maybe not, I don't know.
Casey Koza:Yeah, I don't know I'm not a.
Wil Walmsley:We got the engineer here, the chemical engineer he should be telling us this I'm not a doctor, I make salt it makes salt yeah, let your husband know that I work for morgan, because he got asked that a year ago and he had no idea yeah, will is sponsored by morton salt.
Jess Brazeau:They do pay me well, I think you should work out a deal with will and casey to do all your salt testing, and will can just, you can just start doing like I'm biased. The answer is you always need more salt yes, I've heard your, uh, your, your sodium rates, uh, a little high it is exceptionally high today.
Wil Walmsley:The hot weather uh yeah, I love the hot weather, but then I got back and my gear was just covered in salt his was almost im immeasurable.
Casey Koza:I think, yeah, will salts up a lot. I was pretty, I was saltier than I thought. The salt test definitely helped overcome the salt challenge, I think oh good. One last thing for you, Jess, while Will reminded me of something Are you a music running person or not a music running person?
Jess Brazeau:No music.
Casey Koza:Yeah, no headphones. Raw, raw dog and huh, raw dog yes, I will.
Jess Brazeau:I do admit I did use the use of music as um a tool during the chianti block because I was doing a lot more flatter road running and it was really, really boring for me. It's my least favorite running, so I did use music, but, um, when I'm out in the forest I don't use music yeah, trails I never do, but if I, if it's the towpath yeah, it's.
Casey Koza:Yeah, I understand that like podcast there's only so much like mentally unstimulated you can handle especially when you run the same thing all the time. It's the same tree, the same yeah.
Wil Walmsley:I'm like I don't recall. I don't know if I've ever ran with headphones.
Casey Koza:I do have a pair of the Head Shocks Pretty nice, terrible for airplanes. I have to wear the big goofy ones on the airplane because they don't cancel the noise out at all. You can actually hear. So that sucks for airplanes. But anyway, jess, we've been about an hour, over an hour, I think close to an hour.
Jess Brazeau:It's tardy.
Casey Koza:Yeah, oh, probably me. I'm always late, but I really do appreciate you coming on and just kind of shooting the shit with us about everything running gymnastics. I didn't get to mention michaela maroney's vault.
Wil Walmsley:I meant to do that next time ask favorite cheese in france. Yeah, what favorite cheese that she had in france probably all of them, I would imagine all right, that's pretty good.
Jess Brazeau:um, now there's a woman that has 98 goats, that lives above the house that we rented when we were living there and she makes a really, really great goat cheese called gratin. That one's pretty good.
Casey Koza:Yeah, homemade goat cheese. Yeah, it's nice. Do you know how to say goat in polish?
Jess Brazeau:I don't, can you?
Casey Koza:you probably do koza koza nice last name aha casey goat, yes that is your polish lesson for the week, so okay well, I'm never going to forget it now. Yeah, it's very easy. Yeah it's I. Always I didn't like it as a kid because kids knew like a goat, and then now it's cool to be the goat. Yeah, well, you know how kids are. They're terrible, they're awful. But thank you very much for joining us. I certainly appreciate it. Appreciate it will wilkipedia, the co-host. Appreciate you, pal, and until next time to my hobby joggers. Thank you.