The Hobby Jogger Podcast

E39 | The Art of Trail Marketing with Matt Trappe

• Hosted by: WeeViews & Branch Sauce • Season 1 • Episode 39

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Strap on your shoes and join us for a discussion with Matt Trappe, a creative director and founder of Auteur Sportif. In a world where trail running is transcending its traditional boundaries, we explore how athletes are evolving into brand creators, harnessing the power of storytelling to build their identities within the running community. 

With the sport witnessing an influx of new talent and a growing appreciation from mainstream culture, Matt shares his insights on the dynamic landscape of trail running, including its relationship with branding, diversity, and personalities in competition.

During our conversation, we delve into the unique opportunities athletes have to amplify their narratives, the importance of telling authentic stories, and how emerging trends are reshaping the industry's engagement with fans. We discuss the need for a more inclusive community and the potential impact of character-building rivalries on attracting wider audiences. 

Casey Koza:

It is a hockey night in Pittsburgh. That line is a famous line that was uttered many times before Many Penguin games in Pittsburgh PA. Today marks the passing of Mike Lang, one of my all-time heroes in sports, and I think it's a very fitting opening for today's Hobby Jogger, as our guest today is Matt Trapp and he is a brand marketer, creative director and founder of I should have asked how to say this before Autair Sportif. Did I say that correctly?

Matt Trappe:

Matt. Yeah, so I've got to correct you on my name too.

Casey Koza:

It's Trappy was gonna ask the e it's totally fair. It happens like 90 of the time I get cassie a lot, so I understand, mr. Yeah, matt trappy, thank you so much today.

Matt Trappe:

Thanks for having me guys. I appreciate it.

Casey Koza:

Excited to talk to you yep, we have our co-host, mr rob meyers, on as well. Rob, how are you?

Rob Myers:

doing well. Yeah, it's a sad day for hockey fans it is.

Casey Koza:

It is that you know mike lang had a lot of great moments in pittsburgh sports calling hockey games. I'm lifelong penguins fan, so very sad day, see how many of those isms I can sneak into today's show. There you go, yeah, yeah. So, matt, how have you been? How's everything going?

Matt Trappe:

I'm doing well Getting the year kind of kicked off here, starting to feel some momentum and, yeah, excited for everything to come this year. I think there's so much momentum in the running world, especially trail running, and I'm excited to get outside when the weather warms up and really, really, really feel that yeah, I've been.

Casey Koza:

I've been stuck indoors like an inside cat now for the last two weeks. Uh, you used to live here in in cleveland area, so you understand I did and I do. Yeah, it's, it's. I think it's been a solid four weeks of snow outside in cold, so haven't made it outside.

Matt Trappe:

Much has the sun been out, though. That's kind of like the key, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, that's.

Casey Koza:

That's the tough part we went a solid 10 day stretch without seeing the sun yeah, that sounds about right.

Matt Trappe:

That sounds about right that's cleveland yep, that, that's Cleveland. I'm in Colorado now. We see the sun a lot, so even when it's cold it doesn't feel too bad. I I really enjoy that after spending, I don't know, my all the way up to my early 20s in in Cleveland, in the Ohio area yeah, you guys get the bluebird days out there and we do, yeah, get the blackbird days. I guess I don't know what else I don't know what else you would call them.

Casey Koza:

I don't know what they are? Yeah, they're not good.

Matt Trappe:

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, good to connect with some guys from from the area, from what I still call home. My brother lives where my parents live, or my wife's family is as well.

Casey Koza:

Coming up here, Did you? Were you involved at all with the running community?

Matt Trappe:

before. No, not at all, Not at all. I moved out of Ohio and out of the Cleveland area in 2005. And no, I hadn't. I wouldn't have even characterized myself as a runner then. I was always a soccer player growing up but like sort of post-college, like trying to figure out athletically, like what even was I anymore. And yeah, that was kind of when I when I found running, but it was probably more when I, when I lived in Chicago, that I really started running a lot more, Just like a stage in life kind of thing, more than the place I was living at the time.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, I know what you mean with that. That's kind of former soccer player. We often talk about that on the show of it being a good build-up sport to running, especially the ultra trail world, you know, takes quite an athlete to to perform at high levels there. But yeah, I know what you mean. You then leave that world and come into gotta have something to do and a hobby and yeah, it leads well into the running world.

Rob Myers:

I feel like take your props, casey, because you're two. You're two, two and seven.

Casey Koza:

I think no jim kind of counts because jim played at a pretty high level when he was young.

Rob Myers:

Take your props, casey, because you're two, you're two and seven.

Casey Koza:

I think now Jim kind of counts, because Jim played at a pretty high level when he was young. Okay, two and a half and seven, matt. So we have a running theory on this show of soccer players leading into becoming very good trail runners. Grayson Murphy was on last week. He played soccer in college.

Matt Trappe:

Jim stomped on my theory and crushed it, but he also did play soccer in his youth. Oh, walmsley, yeah, yeah, totally, absolutely. Yeah. I've got a couple more for you then. Do you guys know Dave Mackey Gonna? Look it up now. To look it up now. Oh, dave mackie's a legend. He's a former ultra runner of the year. He lives in boulder here and, uh, dave mackie was a great soccer player. Scott hymie as well was another very successful ultra runner that had a great soccer career, play collegiately. So yeah, check, check, check those guys out.

Casey Koza:

Shot to mackie and hymie sweet two more to the list, rob oh yeah, those are good ones for you.

Matt Trappe:

Those are good ones.

Rob Myers:

Starting to lean in your favor, Casey. We'll see what happens.

Casey Koza:

I don't know if we're leaning in my favor yet, but we've Starting to. Yeah, we've caught up a bit. We've caught up a bit, which is good. I was hurting pretty bad there, so thanks for that, matt. I needed that.

Matt Trappe:

Thanks for that Matt. I needed that.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, for sure. So you mentioned that we have big things ahead of us in the running calendar this year, specifically trail running. I know that we have some pretty big races on the horizon that I'm looking forward to. What, outside of the races, are you looking forward to? I guess, more from like a, you know, a brand, a marketing aspect are you looking forward to?

Matt Trappe:

Yeah, I mean I'm I mean first like to touch on the races. I'm, like you know, like a lot of people, excited to see who comes out on top, who wins, what the surprises are, what the stories are, what you know really good close races we have. But I'm also thinking about how brands take advantage of those sort of like cultural moments and like current, like zeitgeist happenings, how they, how the races themselves interact with the sport and how the sport's growing and changing, how the products evolve to that growing and changing. Like definition of a runner. I'm looking kind of industry wide at at that sort of storytelling and how that connects with all the things that you know we see happen culturally and throughout the sport throughout the year. So that that's the stuff I'm watching out for, just as much as not just what happens, I guess, but like what sort of the reaction from the industry is to it. That that's really interesting to me.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, one thing I've noticed over the last I'll say 18 months, because that's when I kind of started paying attention to it more is it seems that more people, including yourself, have taken their platform and started a new brand. So last episode, perfect example Grayson Murphy starts her paper company. You have Jackson starts the Dirt Brigade. There's a gentleman in West Virginia, ryan Ramsby, who started Roman Run. Do you think we're going to see a lot more of that, where athletes take their paycheck more into their own hands now and build brands off of what it is that they've created? Are we going to see more of that?

Matt Trappe:

Yeah, I really hope so. I think for a couple of reasons. It's I mean, first, like the barriers of entry to doing that are a lot lower than they used to be. If you want to have product made, that's a lot. I mean, the internet has just really democratized a lot of that, so making it happen is still really difficult but a bit easier, like just logistically, than it used to be. But also from the athlete standpoint, just diversifying your income, diversifying your sort of story within the sport and not having it so attached or so dependent on you know one brand telling it for you, I think is really extending the longevity of their careers and making them more valuable, making athletes more marketable. So from an athlete standpoint, I think that's absolutely a way to go.

Matt Trappe:

I don't know that I personally come at it from the athlete standpoint. I think of myself more as a creative, as a photographer, as a director, as a filmmaker. Telling a story is something that just really interests me Looking for a story, finding a story. So doing that with a brand as opposed to a film, for me is kind of the next challenge. It's how do I tell a story with products, with events, with, of course, photos and video and other activations. How do I do that Sort of the way I would within a film if there was, like you know, music or you know, some sound effects that I would incorporate or some voiceover or some visual effects, and using those as sort of the tools to tell the story in that way? Yeah, I hope we see a lot more of that coming. I think it's starting to trend that way, but I wouldn't say particularly heavily in running, at least the way we've seen it, maybe in larger mainstream ball sports and things.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, the reason I wanted to ask that first is because I I see a lot of opportunity just as me with my own brain of where I'll hear people say, hey, so-and-so athlete is should be sponsored. It's like, well, so-and-so athlete should. I can see so much potential in this guy, this woman. They should be doing this and this, and I hope that they understand that of even what a simple YouTube channel can do to your marketability to the bigger sponsors. That's right. And do you work with athletes to help them see that? Because they're runners, that's their job is to run, but they want to make money, so they need to sell a product. And yeah, do you, do you work with any athletes to help them see that?

Matt Trappe:

I haven't too much. Specifically, I did a call with my friend, kelly newland, who is a, I guess, agent athlete manager in particularly trail running specifically, and Kelly and I did a call and put a little I don't know a seminar type thing together for the PTRA, which is the Professional Trail Runners Association, talking about some of those things. I mean, from Kelly's standpoint it was how an athlete should kind of position themselves and market themselves when they're looking for brand sponsorship, approaching that relationship and that sponsorship discussion. For me it's a lot of looking at that again from that storytelling perspective. But I think it depends on the athlete.

Matt Trappe:

I mean, some of them are more natural storytellers, are a lot more comfortable with storytelling, are a lot more comfortable with, say, starting a YouTube channel. Others really just they just want to train, they just want to run. You start to see the athletes that are a little bit more leaning towards, you know, and a little more comfortable with that storytelling do that. But the question was, how did how did the others that really just want to train and run, how can their sponsors even they had the brands that they work with enable them more to be better or more diversified, I guess, marketing outlets for them. How can they help them to start the YouTube channel? How can they help them to be more comfortable and active on social? Provide them the resources, provide them the training, things like that, so that they can, you know, just just focus on running, if, if, that's, if, that's sort of their personality.

Rob Myers:

Yeah, I mean the sport has grown so much in the past five, 10 years. I mean I'm half kidding, but how far away do you think we are from Jim Wamsley tequila, you know, like in boxing, really getting sponsored by these companies outside of running?

Matt Trappe:

I hope we're not far away. I think it sort of seems different. I hope we're not far away. I think it sort of seems different to those of us that remember it. You know the sport from 10 or 15 years ago, but it wouldn't shock me to see something like that right now. You start to see it, maybe a little bit with like Courtney she has some sponsorships with like Kodiak Cakes right, that makes like pancake mix, things that are like starting to be a little bit disconnected from the sport. Granted, not like big brands or anything like that, but as, as running starts to permeate and we're seeing a lot of that right now, probably a bit more with road than with trail, but, you know, starts to permeate into the larger culture, into, like you know, hip-hop culture and things like that. I don't think that talking about partnerships with more mainstream brands is such a stretch and I think it would be really, really cool to see.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, I don't think it's too far off because Courtney, Jim, Killian and Katie I count Katie in that group of the agree the the very top echelon of super marketable. We're not that far off from a Katie Scheid vodka or whatever you know. You know her own, her own beer brand.

Casey Koza:

Maybe I I'm just throwing products out there you know yeah yeah, but I don't think we're that far off of it because there's starting to be enough eyeballs on the sport. And that kind of brings me to the next question. And I know we have a pushback of trail running where we don't want it to be mainstream. You know we have this like hardcore group of you know and I get that. You know we the laurel highlands ultra that stays old school, we still have plenty of old school races. But how do we balance and move the sport forward and get it more into the mainstream? Do?

Rob Myers:

you have any ideas?

Casey Koza:

behind that.

Matt Trappe:

I would love to see the sport become more mainstream because I think the value that it provides so many people within the sport, I would just love to see that extended to more and more people and that's sort of a lot of my motivation to see it go more you know, quote unquote mainstream. You start to see, as the sport grows, different subcultures sort of emerge, right Like there. It's a lot more faster. At the front of the sport now is a lot more speed, almost like a you know road marathon sort of mentality that didn't exist like 10 or 15 years ago in trail and ultra running. So that's sort of like a you know a subculture that has kind of emerged. You know somewhat new that as the sport grows, I think, as you see it go more mainstream, you're just going to see more of that. I think you're just going to see you know the the tried and true, like maybe mom and pop races, if you want to call them that, where the star line is just someone yelling go. I love those races. You're always going to have that sort of subculture within, within the sport. So I don't know that anybody that feels sort of threatened by any mainstream growth. I don't, I don't know, I don't see that as being super justified Cause I think, like I said, you're going to always have that sort of subculture to it.

Matt Trappe:

How does it reach that?

Matt Trappe:

It's starting to connect, outside of the support, to people that come into the sport from other areas maybe that have more of a following in a larger mainstream culture, that kind of start to spread the story of the sport outside of our little bubble.

Matt Trappe:

That can be brands coming in, that can be, you know, like you see, within road running now, like you know, jelly Roll just starts talking about running 5Ks and losing weight and now he's starting to run crew and all this and it's kind of on the roadside, the whole Travis Barker angle. I think you start to see more stories like that and that really helps it kind of jump outside of our bubble and road running, of course, being just a larger side of the sport, is seeing that. I think a bit for trail, but, um, I don't know that trail is too far off from that, because when people quickly, when people discover they can run a marathon, you know, as we know, in the ultra world, you start thinking about, you know, going a little farther and what if that, what if question. So I would expect Trail and Ultra to follow not too far behind.

Casey Koza:

I agree, and we do have in our what you said bubble. It's the perfect. I think we're going to see the perfect storm. We have a demographic that brands highly see. We are the prime demographic for a lot of nicer brands. I always say it's we're a little bit closer to like a country club than we are, you know, not a country club, I guess I don't know what else the other.

Casey Koza:

The alternative would be, but that's kind of where I positioned the same demographic I mean, is it a little bit like a dirtbag country club?

Matt Trappe:

is that what we could call it? Yeah, dirtbag country club but I mean, but you're right I love that yeah, right, you see you started.

Matt Trappe:

You do see some of the stats around the sport and that there there's a really large like affluent angle to runners in the sport. I mean, on the downside, like you know, it's super white, it's super male and like I mean we're like some white middle-aged guys sitting around here talking about this. But I mean from my perspective, like I like to see it grow and I want more people and more perspectives within the sport, cause that's really interesting to me. So I think that's an area I'd really like to see the sport sort of mature and evolve to bring in more people from, you know, different cultures around our country and around the world. Because, boy, what an interesting, even more diverse scene would that be? That sounds like a ton of fun.

Rob Myers:

So, casey, I think the only downside for us is the sport continues to expand as our chances of hitting in the top 10 go down dramatically.

Casey Koza:

Not that that was going to happen anyways, but yeah, I got gotta be real picky at some small local races if I want to see the top 10 real picky, you can win your beer mile it's more just getting into them at all in some cases, isn't it?

Casey Koza:

yeah, yes it's, it's tough, but and the reason I brought up the demographics is, I guess, the first time I well, the first time was the first time I ran a 50k. I saw it, but when I was Grindstone, it's held at a campground. I'm there camping. Actually, we've got a tent on the ground. We're camping.

Rob Myers:

And we might have been the only ones that were on the ground.

Casey Koza:

I'm watching $120,000 rigs pull in. Yeah, yeah, I was like holy shit, I need a runner, did tell me, because I have a sauce company with mustards and we were talking I was talking to him about the demographics he's like sounds like you need a more expensive mustard then huh well, let's be fair.

Rob Myers:

Let's be fair and honest. So last year, when we went back, you did sleep in your tesla yeah, yeah, I didn't.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, to be fair, I did sleep in very climate controlled very nice warm right right yeah, not to be excluded from that, but uh, yeah, that is true, I am part of the demographic, so I I get it well. That was. That was insightful man.

Matt Trappe:

I appreciate it and it's always good to get insights of a sport that you're part of, and especially from something that I which I, you know, I wish I could do always want to be better at something branding and stuff you know the sport, like I mean I guess adding on that, like just as other thoughts kind of come to mind like the sport's changing really quickly though, and I know there's a lot of people and and brands that are looking to, you know, bring in different perspectives and and grow the diversity within the sport, like just demographically, so that's something you know.

Matt Trappe:

Going to western states, going to hard rock, being out in the sport this year, that I'm will really be looking for and excited to see. I mean, the female side of the sport is taken off and had a huge year last year. So how does that evolve this year? What, what's next for that we can speculate, but I mean I'm excited to just be at events like trail con out in Tahoe prior to Western States and just kind of see how that becomes part of the part of the discourse more so, if we're talking about, you know, things I'm looking forward to seeing this year, it's it's watching that too.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, I know I've mentioned it here before. Jim and Killian in Western States you know I've seen them race before. I want to see courtney versus katie now. That would be fun. That's the matchup I'm truly. But I really want to see is courtney versus katie like where would you want to see them?

Matt Trappe:

which course ideally?

Casey Koza:

I think western states would probably be. You know they're both. I don't know. I don't know that it matters that they could run down you know the canal quarter 100.

Matt Trappe:

And I, I'd show up.

Casey Koza:

That's true. If I got to pick Western states, would would definitely be. Would be it? Maybe UTMB, I don't know, it's either one. Any race they do, burning river 100.

Matt Trappe:

I agree? I agree, any of them would be really interesting. But that that sort of rivalry is kind of fun for the sport, isn't it? When people can kind of see, I mean, we're shaping up to have that on the men's side at Western States too this year, aren't we?

Casey Koza:

It certainly looks that way. Yeah, rivalries are truly what makes sports. Yeah, I agree. Another thing that I would like to see when we're talking about marketing. Yeah, I would like to see when we're talking about marketing. And, yeah, I would like to see Camille embrace a heel roll and come back at Western States. That's what I want to see like that would be great too. Controversy sells, heat sells. Yes, I would root for her to do that. I probably not a popular opinion right now, but I don't care, I would. I would like to see it. I. She's a phenomenally talented runner. There's heat around her, you know. I think that would be another cool story and that would get people to watch, I think really have that, because it's just kind of like self-policing, right.

Matt Trappe:

But as it gets bigger and and, like I said, you start to have more subcultures, do we? Do we kind of get more like, yeah, that villain that maybe people are rooting for, from some angle, like I think that would be fun, it's part of it's part of the evolution, the growth, isn't it?

Casey Koza:

it's part of sports, every sport there's. That is, that's right. The whole country's rooting against patrick mahomes, not because they don't personally like him, but just because he's won before. And you know? Yes, like I said, heat cells. There's a reason the wwf was so successful for decades. That's right manufactured heat manufactured wwe yeah, you know hate to bring wrestling into it, but they hate.

Matt Trappe:

That is the home of villains there isn't really too much sort of like um, you know the way my home, like people are rooting against my homes, right, because he's won like a couple times and whatnot, but like you don't really see that as much in trail running, like nobody's rooting against, nobody wants killing to lose because he's won too much, like I don't think there's anyone that feels that way yeah, it's a very nice sport.

Casey Koza:

It sport, it is like it's very polite, it's very nice. Everyone cheers for everyone, which is it's good to see. A sportsmanship is, you know, don't take a person while they're down, for sure, but you know a little edge, I don't think would hurt the sport.

Rob Myers:

A little bit of shit talk. Maybe we're lacking that right now. To have what we're talking about in the future, you need a little bit of that back and forth. So-and-so said this, so-and-so said that you know for the rivalry to build.

Matt Trappe:

I I agree that. So the it makes me think of like a podcast episode recently. Have you guys listened to the boulder boys here out of boulder? I've heard of it.

Casey Koza:

I I haven't yet listened to it, so there's like.

Matt Trappe:

I mean, there's a handful of pro trail runners and they, you know, banter on their on their podcast weekly or every couple weeks and they had, uh, finn melanson from single track on there and finn did a great job because he kind of like corralled and directed like the bantering into like to just to really go deeper down a hole with before switching subjects basically and um, yeah, they talked about that. Like is a little bit more like of the cause it exists between some runners. They don't like this person or that person, you know, because of this thing that happens, but it's it's very buried and not really talked about so openly. But I think it would be great to hear more of that more openly and be able to watch a race knowing you know who's got their eyes on each other.

Casey Koza:

Like I, a hundred percent agree. I I wish it were more, because drama I mean drama is what, what sells shows. That's what sell, that's what people click on.

Matt Trappe:

Yeah, and I think if you, if you look at the growth of like live stream within the sport, having those narratives would really help grow the live stream side of the sport too, and I think that's a real, you know, possible growth engine in the future. And, um, that's the kind of stuff that they need to generate an audience and retain an audience, right I guess a good comparison.

Casey Koza:

Now I think about it. Maybe it is, I don't know, probably not, but the poker boom of the like mid 2000s there was some very unlikable people. I remember that and it was like watching phil helmuth blow up was why people tuned in seeing who he would shit talk with that. You know that episode or that tournament or whatever that was. You know that was a big thing. So we might be on to something that I think we are and those guys also.

Matt Trappe:

I remember that, like sitting around the table, they each were in and of themselves like a caricature of some, like some stereotypical type of person. Right and so it was. It was almost like you'd literally had characters in the story of that you know particular game.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, yeah, and I I think there's a lot of room for that in trail running. Yeah, I love it, that where you just have these just characters that are so different in contrast, and hopefully you have some friction. I don't know, and I'm still trying to like walk on eggshells to say this, because people, you know, I don't want it to be construed as negative because that's not what I'm. That's I'm looking at strictly from a marketing brand perspective, a hundred percent.

Matt Trappe:

Yeah.

Casey Koza:

I want to see Dylan Bowman in the locker room, you know, beforehand interviewing you know whoever and the person like oh, my goal today is to beat so-and-so because my local legend off of whatever.

Rob Myers:

I think they'll keep it lighthearted. I mean, this isn't, you know, mma, right? No, these are runners. They're nice people. So I think, even if we start talking a little smack, it's still going to be lighthearted. Yeah, we're not talking about their mamas or anything like that.

Casey Koza:

No, keeping it within the context of the sport is very important here. Yeah, yeah.

Matt Trappe:

Do you guys think within the sport of running, you know talking about having caricatures like within poker. The poker example is does trail running lend to that even more than like road running, or or, or even track? Is that like, maybe something that's the trail run, trail side of the sports should just lean harder into? I think so.

Casey Koza:

Could be. Road runners always come across as kind of like my buddy will is going to laugh at this. Like you know, stiff and not friendly and not outgoing. They're just very narrow, you know. That's not saying that they are. I'm not accusing them. That's just kind of the we're trail running against this. We have some characters in trail running, like you see some real characters back of the pack, middle of the pack, front. You see some, and we were at western states last year crewing and some of the stuff I saw. I was like this is like a, like, this is like a marketing dream to have this. You know this kind of thing happen and no one's taking advantage of it.

Rob Myers:

So yeah, I think, to quote you. To quote you road running is the orchestra right, trail running is a fish concert yeah, I did say that okay, yeah, I like that.

Matt Trappe:

What's what's track then? Because I feel like track is track someone. I would compare the most to trail running, just based on my perception as having the most characters in it yeah, oh and oh.

Casey Koza:

And who's our 100-meter guy? No, Liles, yeah, Came out and crossed it. He's a very outlandish. Like he embraces that character and I don't know him. I don't know his personal, if that's how he always is or if he turns it on when the camera's on because that's exciting, Like I remember sitting here in my living room watching that, didn't really know him, but he came out and did his thing and I was like I'm rooting for this guy, that's my guy.

Matt Trappe:

That's him. It's entertainment as much as sports when you bring that side of yourself into it, isn't it?

Casey Koza:

And like going back to our conversations on you know athletes and having youtube channels, like that, it all connects, uh, from that perspective, maybe, hopefully we'll see you know people embrace that character or take on like a running persona. I guess and I hate to make another wwf comparison but yeah, right, but, but it's true, like the characters that you remember, or it was a fake sport, but I still can. If I hear the ultimate warriors music play, oh yeah, I know exactly what it means. We need something in trail running, I feel, to connect, like we're missing something I think, man I don't know what do you think?

Matt Trappe:

yeah, there's like a little bit more branding, maybe right of of the athletes and whatnot, but on the other side too, like I think of a of of the athletes and whatnot. But on the other side too, like I think of a lot of trail runners, and I mean a lot of people like spending hours at a time alone out in the wilderness. For for a reason like maybe it's also more of an introverted crowd, so it maybe doesn't lend as much to all you know the showmanship that we're talking about, but it's growing a lot. There might be, might be, some more of that as people come into the sport for other reasons that they that they draw from it, aside from just just alone time on the trail yeah and I I do value my alone time out the trail by myself.

Casey Koza:

I mean, I, rob, I know you're the same, you know it's good to get out there and in cbmp here and be alone for two hours and just run through the woods. So there is that aspect of the sport that I agree, that I embrace, and some of it sounded all good fun and joking, but also I kind of serious about some of the character stuff as well.

Matt Trappe:

Yeah, I mean just from, like we're talking about how to connect right to mainstream culture, Like I think that's where this angle comes from right. It's having these characters in the larger than life personality. It helps make, make the sport a little bit more open to that connection hopefully it does that.

Casey Koza:

And I mean, and hopefully we could see it evolve. And you know, you know, maybe you know, jim comes out to Western States like a real big fish song or something.

Matt Trappe:

I don't know, yeah, but you saw, I mean early Jim was really like throwing his goals out there and swinging big and that I that in hindsight you talk to some of the younger runners now that brought a lot of people, people into the sport, Him just being real brash about him running 14 hours at Western States and that brought a lot of runners in that otherwise might not have connected with crunchy granola trail runners.

Rob Myers:

It's true, we do need the Mike Tyson of trail running, right, or even if you're not a runner, you know who he is right.

Matt Trappe:

All these characters draw people in.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, and yeah, jim, he was. He was edgier then than really there is edgy now. I agree he was, yeah, and I think maybe giving him credit for really growing the sport because it caught some mainstream people talking about, especially in the running world. I don't know the name and I'm not going to plug it because it's a super toxic place, but there was that message board. If you searched his name. It was like all this shit talking on him how he can't do this, he can't qualify for the Olympics, oh yeah. Well, that's bad, but it has people talking about him. So his kind of calling the shots of I'm going to go qualify for the Olympics, that's my goal, that gets people talking and kind of turns heads. So, yeah, shout out to Jim for that and I would say he's definitely part of the boom of Wyatt. He's one of the big factors of why it happened, and Courtney as well.

Matt Trappe:

That's right, that's right. Yeah, exactly On the on the women's side.

Casey Koza:

Right, I totally agree, I totally agree, I would say, courtney, even just all around, not even just the women's side, you know, going on, joe Rogan, predominantly male demographic, and how many maybe road runners that you know? Maybe didn't work, familiar with the sports, sports saw that what she was doing and, oh, let me give my local 50 K, you know, a shot or something crowd right this hunting angle into the sport to see Courtney, particularly at that Moab 240 where she beat everyone to go on Rogan, talk about that.

Matt Trappe:

You know Cameron Haynes raced in that race as well and that I think that was a really cool moment for for the sport and and and for women, I guess, in particular to be on top of that conversation.

Casey Koza:

Those two have contributed. I don't want to put a number on it, but a majority of this wave of the sport, I think.

Rob Myers:

She's kind of part of the extended Rogan crew at this point, just because she hangs out with Haynes so much and there's quite a bit of content online her and Cameron running together and once you're on the Joe Rogan experience you kind of get put into that extended family. So I'm guessing we'll see her back on at some point.

Matt Trappe:

Yeah, Another, another sort of connection right into some other, like more mainstream, like larger culture, that kind of got brought in or exposed to trail running through that and, um, I think it's it all those, all those little connections that have helped the sport grow a lot over the years.

Casey Koza:

I'm guessing all of this is what helped you start your own brand. Did that play a part in you saw this wave coming? You were like your marketing creative brain.

Matt Trappe:

Not really. No, not really. For me it was working with so many brands over 10, 12 years, shooting campaigns, launching products, making films, working at events, doing being exposed to so much of the sport. From a storytelling perspective, like I was kind of mentioning before the the challenge for me to, you know, make a film and relay a story and you know, use the color and the audio and the visual effects and those sorts of things to tell a story. I just got more interested on kind of a step up from that. Why are the clients that I was working for, why are the brands launching this shoe and having this message and what audience are they trying to speak to and how are they communicating that message? That sort of storytelling on that level became really interesting to me. How could we make an event that connected better than maybe some of the events or the standard events we see or the activations we see at races? How can brands connect better that way? How can the photography stand out more and be a bit more distinct? You see trends where all brands kind of always look this way and then a lot of brands always use photography that kind of looks that way Like how can, just how to how to be distinct in storytelling on that brand level really piqued my curiosity.

Matt Trappe:

Working with so many digital teams, working with so many creative directors, working with so many agencies that were trying to do these things, I just really felt like I gained a lot of knowledge and it made me really curious. I'm always taking big swings. I mean I had no background in photo or video when I started to do this. I worked in biotech and marketing and sales at two biotech startups. I've just always been, I guess, confident that I can figure things out and learn things, but then I don't know, I guess either naive or bold to leap and try them myself.

Matt Trappe:

So that sort of like bug in my ear was a lot of the reason that I just wanted to start my own brand and doing that isn't something that is profitable a year later. And doing that isn't something that is profitable a year later. I mean the brands you start to see coming up now, like Satisfye and Bandit. Some of these brands Satisfye in particular they've been around for 10 years and only the last couple of years are people really taking notice on a larger scale. So it was also like I just want to get this started and that flywheel will take a while to kind of gain momentum as I fine tune the storytelling, develop products and learn a lot of things I need to learn, so that I don't know if urgency is the right word, but need to just kind of start to get that snowball rolling. Sooner than later was part of the motivation too.

Rob Myers:

Your photos are amazing, I mean no thanks.

Matt Trappe:

The photos from take the bridge. Uh, that race that's a cool one. Yeah, yeah, that's fun.

Rob Myers:

Thank you, I appreciate that so was that race 100 at night, or did they start at sunset?

Matt Trappe:

that was at winter, you know. So during the winter first gets dark a little bit earlier. I forget what time that race started at, maybe eight, eight o'clock, something like that we're well aware of that here in in Ohio.

Matt Trappe:

Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. But take the bridge is a really cool race. You know my friend Darcy puts that on. They partner with brands periodically, a real kind of underground like gritty racing scene. Um, I don't know how familiar you guys are with them. You know how you got to make your way around the town. There's checkpoints but you can go any way you want to get there. So like just kind of a cool different format. That was a fun one to shoot. The one I shot was, you know, here in Denver, so a bit more local. But it lends itself to that black and white, gritty at night kind of, you know, darker image sort of look and when people are gasping out of breath at the end of the race or of any race, that always makes for the best shots.

Rob Myers:

Yeah, that's a good way to describe it Gritty. When you look at the photos, that's the first word that pops, pops in your mind.

Matt Trappe:

That's the feel gritty I mean they're. They're usually grainy too, because everyone has their ISO cranked up on their cameras so you get that kind of just digital grain as a result. But it kind of lends to the mood a bit and I think you see a lot of take the bridge photos that are kind of similar in some regards. Because of that just kind of naturally falls that way. Thanks for the nod on the photos. I appreciate that, guys. I haven't taken as many lately as I used to Fun to talk about.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, I wish you would take more because it's a great storytelling medium. The photos I think I love it, like if I run. We talk about a lot on the show Laurel Highlands very old school race, but they have a photographer.

Casey Koza:

And I'll just scroll through all the pictures because it's beautiful scenery and it's just you can see different runners progress through the race, as the you know, and it's get this story in these still frames and it's okay, 50k. You know this guy looked real good at the, you know, smile and happy at mile eight, but now it's, you know, mile 30 and this dude is bloody and beaten and you you get to see the story progress through photography in a way that I don't think video quite captures when you shoot a race.

Matt Trappe:

For me it was. I was always watching for those things and you're you're really. It makes you be really focused and really in tune with the race and everything that's happening around you. When you have your camera in in your hand and you're kind of, you know, looking for what you sets that kind of spark in your brain to take the photo, and that having to pay that close of attention and be that tuned in was I just really enjoy that state of mind.

Matt Trappe:

It's kind of evolved now. You know where we're talking about, you know the industry and what are you looking for. That's kind of the same approach that I have. Like I want to go to events this summer and see how the sport evolves, with that sort of a of a focus, like I would have. You know, shooting a race, watching the runners go by, seeing who looks like they're hurting, where's the moment to like anticipating maybe the moment to you know, snap that photo. That state of mind is, is I don't know, it's a flow state in in a way, like like running it's, but it's, but it's really really fun it certainly is, I think, in in artists.

Casey Koza:

They call it the bright brain mode correct yeah yeah, I think there's definitely some flow state, right brain type, you know, remembering things and just angles, and I don't understand it because I don't take pictures. But yeah, rob's our photographer, huh, rob.

Rob Myers:

I'm not even going to call myself that.

Matt Trappe:

On the podcast yes, you are, rob, everybody is. Everybody has a different view.

Rob Myers:

Yes, you are you've done so much. You know we do a little bit of research before every podcast. I didn't know what to talk about. I mean there's documentaries, tons of photos. I mean a million different articles. What was your, what was your favorite project? I know you worked with Cliff bar.

Matt Trappe:

I mean, you name it, it's. It's so hard I don't know what my I don't know, I don't really know what.

Matt Trappe:

So, like the, the, the, the films I did with Jim were really, really fun. He was first at Western States and trying to swing for 14 hours and just embedding with him and all his buddies. That all went by the Coconino Cowboys at the time in 2016, 2017, 2018. It was really cool to sort of be a casual observer. That's like right in it, like we all stay at the same house when we went out to western states, and so being right in those moments with the camera that was a lot of fun. I mean, I followed tony kropichka on you know nolan's 14 attempts and like gone up I don't, I don't know maybe four or five of the 14ers trying to get you know some photos and shoot some video of him doing that. You know joe grant, also on nolan's 14 attempts, that those kind of come to mind because they're sort of adventures for me too, with with the cameras, huffing up and down peaks and trying to get like a race right, trying to gauge the time and what time you need to be here or be there and watching as the story unfolds, not knowing what's going to happen. Those are probably some of the most fun things. I've also had like a lot of fun on commercial shoots too, you know where it's kind of a real scripted, like shoe launch that isn't, you know, quite as creative or in depth, like from a storytelling perspective, as some of those adventures were. But just like the crew and the people that I've been able to work with, from like the talent or like models on those shoes to creative directors, to, you know, dps and like camera ops that I've worked with I mean like hair and makeup in in wardrobe people some of those crews have been a lot of fun too on the commercial side.

Matt Trappe:

So I have really really really good memories of that man. I the first time I made a film, I ran 150 miles of the colorado trail with scott hymie in a week when he set the fastest time on the color trail, you know, which is roughly 500 miles. I didn't I didn't do the whole thing by any means, but doing that much of that trail in a week with while carrying cameras, was an adventure and really wrecked me. That was kind of the first longer form film that I made and I got to see the entire Colorado Trail, which is awesome and which is amazing. Yeah, there's a few that stand out. There's probably others that will come to mind. I don't have this like catalog memory of everything I've done. Like maybe I feel some people do it all kind of pops up at different moments if I'm kind of cute or reminded of things, but it's hard for me to just like from scratch, be like, yeah, here's like the top three things or something Like I'm totally forgetting some things that were incredible and definitely not forgettable.

Rob Myers:

We've worked on a lot of projects. I'm not surprised You're going to forget at least a couple.

Matt Trappe:

Honestly, it's just been fun. The most fun stuff is getting to know the people that I'm working with like mentioning some of the commercial crews, but the athletes too. Like I said, spending time with Jim and the Coconino Cowboys in those early days it's part of making a good film too is kind of embedding with them. So they kind of trust you and you're part of the group and you're not like the guy that's always got a camera pointed in their face that they don't really know. I mean that really puts you in a position to tell a better story also. And yeah, maybe, maybe it's a lesson for if for brands too, as they try to tell more brand stories that they want to be more authentic versus more contrived, if you're not really comfortable with or the subject isn't really comfortable for you, it comes off as more contrived.

Casey Koza:

Well, you said there's. Yeah, most people are hip to the if it's made up and contrived and not organic people can. You can spot it a mile away and some companies haven't yet figured that out.

Matt Trappe:

I don't think. Yeah, Some are some. The ones that have figured it out are the ones that really live and breathe in the sport themselves.

Matt Trappe:

Yeah, the ones that have, the ones that have trouble with it. Just see the sport as as the industry where their company tries to sell product, instead of this subculture of people where they feel like they also are identified too right that's, I mean, that's the difference, right there, and that's why small brands really succeed, because they start these brands with that passion and they live it, and then, the bigger they get when they're part of VF or become these big conglomerates, they have a harder time connecting yeah, and it's.

Casey Koza:

You can hire all the influencers you want, but it's still, we can generally spot it, you know? Yeah, I think so too, trying not to mention any brands in particular, but yeah, it's very yeah, it's not organic. It's pretty easy to see behind the curtain.

Matt Trappe:

And it's sort of like for me comes to the conversation that we have within the business side of the sport or any business. I suppose it's like data-driven decision-making versus more creative or maybe intuitive decision-making. If you're solely relying on data, I think your chances of coming across as inauthentic are a lot higher, because you can't just hit these three data points in a vacuum and make a campaign that speaks to that data-driven trend and have it connect with actual people living in this audience that you're you're speaking to, you've got a yeah, I suppose you've got to balance that and also be really connected with the audience. So you know, like we were saying things, things land as a bit more authentic and not not so contrived I'll bring it up because it's positive.

Casey Koza:

But bill armstrong of never second, I think has done a very good job of understanding the sport and embracing the culture of running, not just looking at it as dollars and data points, but to build a brand around running, because he does more than just trail running.

Casey Koza:

It's not just trail running. He does marathons and sponsors it and actually puts his brand, you know, gives money to some of these organizations to. You know, put on a little bit better event. That's right. One of them is Pittsburgh marathon, my, my hometown marathon. So you know I awesome to see that get more support and more backing from.

Matt Trappe:

Yeah, that's great to see, you know, never second really contributing in, really contributing in Pittsburgh, right, and not just like New York and LA or something right. They really kind of focus on maybe not the most obvious trail running markets or not the most obvious running markets. I think that's really cool for them to have some focus there.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, yeah it is, and I think that does exactly what you said. It lends to the authenticity of a brand where, because you're putting dollars behind what it is, you're saying not just saying things for the good of saying them yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. So I thought I'd just put a focus on them because I I do think they do an exceptional job and we try and be positive here at the hobby. Talker right, rob, yeah, yeah, yes, sir, it's not all shit talk and heel heat here.

Rob Myers:

It's usually the opposite of that.

Casey Koza:

Yeah, it's usually the opposite. Well, matt, it's been awesome talking to you. Man, you know we could do a three-hour long forum on branding and ideas of marketing and such and just the sport in general.

Matt Trappe:

I feel like I could talk all day.

Casey Koza:

Yeah.

Matt Trappe:

I could as well.

Casey Koza:

Thank you for having me. It's been great. Thank you so much. And where can our listeners find you? Sorry, rob, you say it. No, you already said it, go ahead.

Matt Trappe:

My fault, I jumped the gun.

Matt Trappe:

Come on, rob, I want to hear. So, Matt, where can our listeners find you? You can find me several places on Instagram. My handle is trappy photo T-R-A-P-P-E-P-H-O-T-O. I write a newsletter on Substack called A Matter of Brand, and the brand that I'm working on is called Artur Sportif, so that's ArturSportifcom. I guess I didn't really go into the brand too much, but it's coming at running from a lifestyle angle, talking about running as an art. Um, more than more than sports and more than performance, than having, maybe, speaking to that sort of mentality, that sort of lens on the sport. So, um, yeah, check out actors for deepcom and, uh, thank you for having me reach out anytime.