The Hobby Jogger Podcast
Welcome to The Hobby Jogger Podcast, where elite athletes and ham-and-eggers lace up their stories. We explore the common ground that running creates from the world-class runner to the hobbyist hitting the pavement, trail or treadmill. Expect a blend of inspiration, laughter and the shared joy that makes every step count. Join us on this journey, where every run is a story worth sharing.
The Hobby Jogger Podcast
E37 | Jason Fitzgerald on Strength Training for Runners
Join us for an insightful conversation with Jason Fitzgerald, the mastermind behind Strength Running and the voice of the Strength Running Podcast. With a marathon personal record of 2:39 and a USATF coaching certification, Jason brings a wealth of knowledge and passion to the table. Unlock the secrets to balancing strength training and running performance as we tackle the intricacies of integrating weightlifting into a runner’s routine.
Discover how dynamic warm-ups and unconventional exercises like jumping rope can transform your training regimen. By weaving these elements into your routine, you'll enhance your running economy and reduce injury risks while boosting overall performance. From personal anecdotes to expert advice, this episode is packed with insights that will inspire you to elevate your running game and achieve your personal bests.
Today's guest is Jason Fitzgerald, the mind behind strength running. With a blazing 239 marathon PR and a USATF coaching certification, jason has dedicated his career to helping runners train smarter, race faster and stay injury-free. As the host of the Strength Running Podcast, he's known for his no-nonsense approach to performance and strength training. In this episode, we'll dive into his proven methods for building stronger, more resilient runners, the keys to injury prevention and how you can apply these strategies to your own running journey. Thank you for joining this week's episode of the Hobby Jogger. We welcome you all back from our break. Rob and I have been doing a lot of traveling, so we're getting back into the mix of things here today. Rob, how are you?
Speaker 2:Doing well. Speaking of travel out in beautiful Los Angeles, California, today, slowly making my way farther west to Hawaii.
Speaker 1:Are you going to see previous guest Brian Parker while you're out there? Yeah, I'm going to see him tonight and have a couple of beers, oh sweet. Well, tell him we said hello. I'm enjoying the Pit on HBO, so check that out. I'm also now boycotting Hoka because I couldn't get a pair of Speedloafers today. They sold out right away. So that's news, boycotting Hoka. Noted yes, got that out of the way. Well, welcome to our guest today, mr Jason Fitzgerald. He is a strength running podcast host. That is the name of his podcast, jason.
Speaker 3:How are you, I'm great. Thanks so much for having me on the show, guys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, dude, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. You actually coach me and you don't know it, so I just wanted to thank you for that and helping me improve via your podcast.
Speaker 3:So oh, that's awesome to hear. Good to hear it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So telling you that now and didn't tell you that before, I guess didn't want to ruin the big surprise for you. But yeah, have taken a lot of what you said and used it and kind of want to hear how you maybe came up with it and a couple couple episodes. So yeah again, thanks, thanks again for joining us here. We appreciate it. And uh, first thing I want to talk to you about Jason. Sorry, lost my notes there. You're running career. You ran in college, correct?
Speaker 3:Yes, I ran a four years of cross country indoor track, outdoor track. Did you also?
Speaker 1:row. Did I hear that in an episode you rode?
Speaker 3:No, I probably have spent a total of 23 minutes on a rowing machine in my entire life. You did not row.
Speaker 2:We're going to miss.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, rowing. No, I have the upper body of a marathon runner, so I don't think I'd be any good at rowing, gotcha.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I thought I heard that. I re-listened to the episode today and I thought I heard you mention that you did row, clearly not a rower, but were definitely a runner in college. So first mistake, rob, didn't take long. Edit button pushed. Edit button pushed After you got out of college. I don't't know what you studied, but I'm guessing there was some something to do with something science.
Speaker 3:If I had to guess, actually no, I I went to. I went to connecticut college. It was a liberal arts school and, uh, I was not incredibly science-minded at the time. I think it was because for me science was physics, chemistry, biology and I didn't really have too much interest in those things. But I'm sure if I took, like an exercise, physiology class when I was 18 years old, it might have changed the trajectory of my career, because I find physiology and training theory and you know that side of the sport of running super fascinating. But no, I actually studied. I was a double major in urban sociology and American political science.
Speaker 1:So very far from anything to do. Well, I guess political science is a science, but pretty far, because you do seem, when I listen to your show, that you're very good at. If you talk about a scientific study or something like, it seems that you've digested it very well and then giving it to me in a manner which I can understand.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I think that's just because I am so interested in the studies and maybe, more broadly, the principles and ideas behind a lot of the studies that influence how we think about training for different events. So you know, whenever I'm talking about a study or just kind of trying to tease out whatever the lesson is, you know that's something that I have such a high level of natural curiosity for that, yeah, I'm probably geeking out over it, probably like most other running nerds out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you could definitely tell that you do geek out about it. You have a great way of conveying the information to your audience. That I really enjoy, because there's a lot of times where I feel like I'm being like it's over my head, like I'm I'm fairly intelligent human being. Sometimes, right, rob, sometimes Sometimes, but a lot of times like I just can't, I don't, it's, it's something, it's stuff I don't understand. Like I can read an abstract of a study and be like okay, I get the general idea of this, but then if I hear some people talk about it, it just gets way over my head and I can't, like I can't digest the information, and you've done a very good job of bringing that down to my level.
Speaker 2:There's also the entertainment factor, right, Because you want to be entertained while you're learning, and if you go too far into the weeds for too long, I mean it's I just kind of drift off at that point, Like it's no longer. The entertainment factor dies off quickly. Put it that way.
Speaker 3:For sure. You know, I think one of the things that I try to do is, you know, I have subject matter experts on my podcast and I try to treat the strength running podcast sort of like where you, the listener is. You are a pro runner and I'm going to surround you with all the subject matter experts that a professional might have around them, so the physical therapist, the sports psychologist, the running coach, the strength coach and, yeah, maybe the physiologist who's bringing new science to the running coach. And you know I'm very interested in science and so when I have a conversation with a physiologist or a researcher or PhD who's doing this kind of work, a lot of the times I'm trying to figure it out myself during the conversation as well, and you know I try to make sure that I understand it and then ask questions that hint at the application of whatever the study is.
Speaker 3:So, okay, why is this important? Why should we care about this? How can we use this to become better runners? So I'm always just trying to kind of bring it back to the lay person who's listening, because I'm sort of a lay person myself. I just want to kind of learn that kernel of truth Like what is that that the lesson or the principle that we can apply to our own training, because we probably don't need to read the methods and the equipment and, you know, read the entire discussion of every single scientific study that comes out in the exercise physiology world. I probably have better things to do with my time. I know you guys do too. We're not going to be reading studies all day long. So if we can ask those people, why is this important? How is this potentially going to change how we approach our training? I think that's some of the most valuable parts of this kind of conversation, because it makes it applicable to your day-to-day training.
Speaker 1:You did an episode that I'd like to discuss a little bit here. Hopefully you remember it. It's from almost a year ago. It was with coach Holly Martin. I think that is the ultimate strength guide episode for somebody who is just putting strength into their running. I took that episode. I don't know if we talked about this, rob, but I took that episode, jason, from the beginning and I just went down all the bullet points of what you and Holly discussed, basically followed it to like it was a roadmap, just went all along the improvements from it. I went from no strength training not going to the gym to now I'm going twice a week really focusing on things following it to a T, and that episode really changed it. I hope it's an episode that sticks out in your mind, does it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Holly Martin, she's a she's a strength coach who works with a lot of runners and we had a discussion basically on how to add strength training to your training. As a distance runner and I'm someone who has done basically complete 180 on strength training for runners when I was a high school athlete I didn't think runners needed to strength train whatsoever. It was redundant. Why would I need to do any strength training for my legs when I'm running as much as I am, when I'm doing the fast workouts that I am? Now I realize that's completely wrong. And strength training is part of the training that almost every runner does who's achieving at a certain level. You know you can pick almost any runner at the Olympic trials or at the Olympics in pretty much every distance event and you're gonna find to a T that they're doing some form of strength training. You know I don't really consider it cross training. It's just part of the training that's necessary to achieve your potential as a runner. So, yeah, that episode was great because we sort of went over.
Speaker 3:If you were to think about strength training for an endurance athlete, what would the ideal structure look like? Not necessarily what exercises to do or how many reps or how much weight to lift, but on a day-by-day basis, what is the most ideal way of thinking about when to get in the gym, how often, how much time to spend, how you will focus your weightlifting? You know, should you be lifting like a bodybuilder, Should you be lifting like a CrossFit athlete, Should you be lifting in a different way? And so all these really big questions, I think are really important for runners, because we can definitely waste a lot of our time in the weight room and if we're doing the wrong thing, we can either waste our time and that might be the best case scenario, worst case scenarios we get hurt or actually do training that's going to be antithetical or counterproductive to our actual running goals.
Speaker 3:You know, if you want to run a faster half marathon or a marathon, there's some things that you just shouldn't do in the gym because they're going to predispose you to injuries or just simply, you know, not really help your running. So, yeah, that episode was really fun for me, especially because I've done this big 180. And I'm now a huge believer in the value of strength training. You know, I'm one of those guys with the squat rack in the garage. I've got the home gym set up. I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and a very important piece of information that you gave out. There is and forgive me, I don't know who said this, you or Holly, but it was to have somebody, if you're just starting out to, would gladly. Hey, this is wrong Because, like you said, you can really injure yourself if you're not using the proper technique back squatting, especially deadlifting I know that's a big one. I was fortunate enough that guy I used to play rugby with, who's a power lifter, was able to go a couple of times. Like Matt, I want to check, make sure my form's okay, before I really dive deep into, you know, starting to lift heavy. So that was the first very important thing I took away from that episode, jason. So I think that's a big big thing for listeners to to be able to have someone to to guide you a little bit, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure. And you know, I think I think two things can be true. Like number one, it's very helpful to hire a personal trainer for maybe just one or two sessions just to go over some of those fundamental lifts like a deadlift, a to do in most programs, just so that you're not doing it with completely wrong form and really predisposing you to these kinds of injuries. Because, you're right, if you try to lift very heavy weight for a deadlift and you have no idea how to do a deadlift, you're probably going to hurt your back for sure. I also just don't want runners to think that they have to go and make this into this big thing where, oh, I got to hire a personal trainer or I got to film myself and then ask my powerlifting buddy, you know, you can get in the gym and give yourself an introduction to strength training and as long as you're not trying to pull 200 pounds off the floor the first time that you do one of these exercises, I think you're probably going to be just fine.
Speaker 3:It's very fascinating to me Running actually has a higher injury rate than weightlifting. Everyone's scared to lift some weight in the gym. Nobody's scared to run a mile down the street where 60% to 75% of runners are going to get hurt every single year. So I think you should probably consult a professional before you do anything very difficult maybe buy a very high quality training plan or hire a coach for your first marathon, for your first powerlifting competition but if you're just going to go run a 5k around the block or, you know, do a couple bodyweight squats, you probably don't need you know that pro to help you out.
Speaker 2:On this topic. I mean, what would you say for the guys out there that put on weight easily, especially muscle? Cause, I know I I always suffer from getting too big, you know, too much protein, lifting too many weights or maybe too heavy of weight, um, and it seems to affect my running right, especially the older I get knees start to bother me, ankles start to bother me, just with putting on 10 pounds of muscle and then, you know, kind of go in the opposite direction, maybe swing a little too far and then get a little too skinny, you know, and then the back hurts, don't feel strong, especially in those longer trail runs.
Speaker 3:Rob tell me your secrets. I would love to know how to effortlessly put on muscle too. This is I'm. On the opposite of you, I'm. I'm one of the hard gainer type people.
Speaker 2:Just born like this? Yeah, it's, it's just genetics Many different body types, right For sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So this is. This is one of the more common issues with runners, especially those who have a background with team sports, who have been in the weight room a lot during their career. They know what they're doing. You know there's a certain amount of muscle memory where they get in the gym and they pick up right where they left off and they easily put on weight.
Speaker 3:I remember reading about, you know, former pro runner, alan Webb, and he had the same issue where if you spent a little bit too much time in the weight room, he would put on all this extra weight. And you're right that if you're carrying all this unnecessary muscle mass, you're not going to be the fastest runner that you could be. Arnold Schwarzenegger is not going to beat your, you know, faster, skinnier friend on the starting line. So there is this kind of sweet spot, right of being strong but not being super muscular. And the first thing that I would I would want to make sure is, I would want to make sure that your running is on point, like, are you running a decent amount? Are you doing a long run, are you doing a weekly workout? And that's obviously going to change week to week. It doesn't always have to be very difficult. But the first thing I want to do is just make sure that your running training is on point, because you know it's just really hard to gain a lot of muscle mass. If you're putting in a decent amount of volume and a decent amount of intensity, it doesn't have to be super high, it doesn't have to be super challenging, but you know, as long as it's more than, say, 25, 30 miles a week, it's going to make that that muscle gain more difficult to achieve. The next thing that I would make sure is like, are you lifting in a way that is going to prioritize strength and power rather than hypertrophy or muscle growth? Because us runners we don't really want to lift like bodybuilders. We don't need to gain muscle size, we want to gain strength and you can actually get a lot stronger without really changing the mass of muscle that you have A lot of. That is neuromuscular, it's efficient communication pathways between your brain and your muscles. You more efficiently recruit muscle fibers and there's a lot of really interesting science that goes on there.
Speaker 3:One of the things that you want to do is make sure that you're not lifting more than, say, twice a week. You know you can do strength training more than twice a week, but probably more of the body weight oriented strength work that you might do if you were to visit a physical therapist, even if you're not injured. We can do that as runners, as prehab rather than as rehab, and it will help keep us healthy. The actual weightlifting when we're in the gym, I think, is best if we keep it to twice a week. We don't need to really lift more than that where you know a bodybuilder might be in the gym five or six days a week.
Speaker 3:We also don't want to lift for really long periods of time. We don't need 90 minute workouts. We probably only need to spend 45 to 60 minutes in the weight room, and you know there's going to be some times where maybe that's only 30 minutes. And so by keeping our weightlifting sessions relatively short, only doing it twice a week within the context of our run training so enough running that it prevents us from gaining excess weight. And then, of course, having that weight lifting be structured in a way that really prioritizes strength and power rather than muscle growth those are probably the big ways to prevent that issue. At the end of the day, it also comes down to your individual response to weightlifting too. If you happen to be the type of person who responds incredibly well to lifting weights and you put on muscle fairly easily, you should probably be someone who's just a little bit more careful with, say, upper body weightlifting, because that's probably where you're going to put on more mass. You can focus a little bit more on you know the power aspects of weightlifting.
Speaker 2:You hit the nail on the head. I have found the only thing that keeps the balance for me one because I travel a lot for a living is just body weight workouts. You know, in the hotel, lots of pushups, lots of squats. I mean not even lifting any weights seems to kind of balance it out a little bit. And then you know, obviously putting in the miles too.
Speaker 3:Yeah for sure. Like you can get a lot done with just body weight workouts. You know I don't want to poo-poo the body weight workouts. I actually did that for years before I was consistently lifting. You know, heavier weight in the gym and you not only can get a lot stronger, but you know, ultimately what runners care about is are my performances improving and am I staying healthy? You know, those are the big things that you really want to get from strength training. You can get a lot of that from the body weight work.
Speaker 3:You know, for those runners who might be a little bit hesitant to get in the gym, they don't want to hang out with, you know, the gym bros who are lifting really heavy weight. It might be intimidating. You know I personally love to strut in there in my short shorts and just really own it. But you know, not everyone is, as you know, sadistic as I am and like to like to embarrass myself like that. But you don't necessarily have to go lift those heavy weights. You can lift the lower weights, you can do body weight stuff and it's really going to help you with those goals.
Speaker 2:You're probably one of those guys that surprises the gym bros, right you come in kind of skinnier frame and just start putting on the weights. Look at me benching 175.
Speaker 3:I mean, the absolute weight that I can lift is not impressive whatsoever. But when you consider my body weight, yeah, I. I probably could surprise some people who are like, oh you don't even really lift that often and you can lift this percentage of your body weight. That's pretty good considering the fact that you're not really lifting too much.
Speaker 1:I would bet, jason, that I would be impressed by like what you load up on the squat rack compared to what your frame is, because it seems like this is something you've done very consistently correct.
Speaker 3:I have been much more consistent, I would say, over the last five or six months actually, because I now have the garage gym, I have the squat rack and all the plates and things like that, so I can actually just go down there when it's convenient for me and do it. And I got to say I feel so much better now than at any other point. You know, looking back over my running career, you know I've been running for, you know, about 26 and a half years now. This is something I should have been doing from the very beginning, partly because I am your cliche, stereotypical looking runner. I would have benefited a lot from getting stronger and not being, you know, the super skinny, you know stereotypical distance runner who looks like they can't even do one bodyweight squat. So I should have been doing it a long time ago and I'm only now learning my lesson. Hopefully others can learn from my mistake.
Speaker 1:As someone who grew up playing ball sports, rugby, soccer, you would think that I would know that the gym is a very important. Strength is very important to any sport. But I, just when I started running and got into ultras and that sort of I just I quit lifting, like I. I did lose a bunch of weight and that was awesome, but I just I completely left the gym, hadn't touched a squat rack and you know three years hadn't. I still don't bench press but didn't do any body weight stuff, just ran and it's a huge piece.
Speaker 1:I think that people miss after seeing just the easy improvement. I don't want to say easy improvement, it wasn't easy improvement, it was a lot of work. But just seeing the amount of improvement over the last 16 weeks that my body's transformed and it definitely makes it easier. Like I did my first interval workout. I'm training for canyons 50K.
Speaker 1:I did my first interval workout Wednesday and it was the first time I'd done it in months since before I started lifting, looked down at the watch after my first one and I was just like holy shit, that wasn't even what it was last year. This was very easy for me to do and again, the pace is all relative to what it is. But I just I was kind of after the first one didn't really believe it, like, oh, maybe I just had the adrenaline going first time with the workout, then the second one, which was a little bit more uphill same thing. I was like man, I'm onto something. But the biggest thing, jason, was the fourth one. I do four sets of four minutes on three minutes rest. The last one. I was just as strong throughout the entire four minutes as I was the first one. Like just the strength at the end, I think, is what I don't. I'd like to get your opinion on this, but it seems like the strength at the end of the workout and the runs is where I've noticed the biggest improvement.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm not too surprised to hear that.
Speaker 1:I was surprised, Jason. I was surprised to feel that is what I was.
Speaker 3:A pleasant surprise. Yeah, strength training makes you more economical. So one of the things that's going to happen is that your running is more efficient, it's less stressful, so you can do the same amount of work with less total energy expenditure. So that's just going to make you doing the same workout a little bit easier. You know later on, after you've started adding strength training to uh, to your program so that's one way that that you're feeling strong throughout the workout is that, hey, it's just, it's just costing you less energy.
Speaker 3:The other thing that is probably likely doing for you is that you know, because you're stronger, you are able to produce more force when you run, but it's not like you notice that right. So it's just sort of like this gradual improvement in your coordination, in your force output, and you get a little bit of that enhanced coordination, and so, for a runner, you're like well, what is that coordination like? What does that mean? Well, it means that your ground contact time probably decreased by a couple hundredths of a second, and that might seem negligible, but if you magnify that out for thousands of steps potentially 10, 10,000 steps or more, depending on the length of the workout you know that is that's a much more economical run, you are putting less stress on your body. You're just going to feel better at the end of the workouts because the entire session is just less stressful overall, because you are now a stronger runner. You are now a more economical, more coordinated runner and so by the end of the workout, hey, you're just feeling good.
Speaker 3:You know, there's basically only three major unlocks that allow people to like have these big jumps in performance. Strength training is one of them, because it makes you much more resilient to injuries, it makes you stronger, it improves your running economy as long as you don't get hurt, like I consider it a performance multiplier. It improves many aspects of your physiology and it really doesn't have too many drawbacks. You know, like, as long as you're not getting hurt, as long as you're gaining you're not gaining a ton of extra muscle mass and weighing yourself down you're only really going to experience positive benefits and that's going to make you into a better runner. And then the other things I would say is really good fueling, if you weren't fueling properly beforehand, and then higher volume training those are probably the three big things that will probably unlock greater levels of performance, and you're experiencing one of them right now Casey, so it's great to see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and really I thank you for bringing it to my attention and putting it into such an easily digestible form for the layman like me to understand it and then execute, which was always the most difficult thing, right, rob? We can hear good information We've got a lot of it on this podcast over the last year but then to actually go out and execute it is entirely a whole new story, right it?
Speaker 2:is, yeah, developing the routine. I think that's where I know I suffer trying to get into a routine. I think most people do. It's the hardest thing to start and the easiest thing to quit, right, I mean, once you get into the routine, it only takes one or two small things and then it feels like you're starting over Knowing what to do and actually doing it two different things.
Speaker 3:You know, I agree with that 100%. I think building the habit of strength training and maybe, more broadly, just a lot of sort of the quote, unquote, little things that we runners know we should be doing in our training it's not just the miles, it's all the other stuff. I have this somewhat simple approach to building this habit. I like to have runners sandwich all of their runs between a dynamic warmup and a post run core or strength routine, and so all this means is that your run is just sort of the meat in the middle of the sandwich, and every run is going is that your run is just sort of the meat in the middle of the sandwich, and every run is going to start with maybe a 10 minute dynamic warmup routine before you head out the door and then at the end of the run, you're going to do 10, 15 or 20 minutes of body weight or or strength training twice a week.
Speaker 3:Sure, you're going to get in the gym, like we talked about before, but this idea of I'm not a runner, I'm an athlete that specializes in running. I'm going to do other things in my training to help me be the best runner that I can be, and part of that is, you know, this kind of strength training. It's warming up dynamically and doing these kinds of flexibility movements. And so, for your listeners, if you can just kind of internalize this rule for yourself that I sandwich my runs, I do a warm up before I go running and then I do a cool down after my run, which is some kind of, you know, relatively short and simple strength or core workout, that's like 75% of the battle right there. If you can just do those things, you're 75% of the way there, you're doing better than, I would argue, 90% of runners out there and you're going to get a lot of the benefits that we talked about.
Speaker 1:Now you said dynamic warmup, jason. What give us a simple us, a simple two, three-step dynamic warm-up that we can utilize before we go out on our run. Because I know that a warm-up to some people thinks oh, I'm going to go out and do a couple sprints first to get my heart rate up, and that's serious. Rugby guys will go out and want to run 40-meter sprints to warm up for a match and it's just like. I don't think that's like serious, like rugby guys will go out and want to run like 40 meter sprints to warm up for a match and it's just like.
Speaker 3:I don't think that's. I don't think that static stretching. We're doing dynamic stretching and a static stretch everyone sort of understands it's touch your toes, you know, pull your your heel behind your body and stretch your quadricep. It's a lot of the stuff that we've been doing since we were in middle school and high school. It's not terribly effective.
Speaker 2:I can't do either of those, though, I haven't touched my toes in a long time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, neither have I, and it's not necessary, right Like we're not gymnasts, we don't need to be super flexible. In fact, our economy partly depends on us having a fair amount of muscle tension and stiffness in our system. But you know that dynamic warm-up is. It could be a series of you know a couple different types of lunges, and then you might do a series of front leg swings, sideways leg swings, you might do a couple drills you know A-skip, b-skip, butt kicks, karaoke, lots of different examples here and the idea is let's do some kind of warm up that is, one going to bridge the gap between being sedentary and running. So this is where a sprint is probably not a good idea, because you sort of need to do some sort of warm up before run and then run slow before you run fast. So it should be this gradual on-ramp to intensity, and that's why the sprints are sort of the last part of the warmup. So you know the dynamic flexibility routine 10 minutes of this kind of either very light strength work, like a series of body weight lunges, then those flexibility exercises like leg swings and things like that, and then you're just much more metabolically primed to go running. So you are expanding your range of motion, You're increasing your heart rate and your respiration, you're opening up those capillary beds in your extremities. You're really just getting your body ready for exercise.
Speaker 3:I think everyone has gone from like sitting down for a while and then immediately started running and you don't feel good. And so this dynamic warmup bridges that gap. And so, number one, it's probably going to reduce your injury risk. It's probably going to improve your performance. You're going to get a little bit stronger because you're doing some extra strength training in this warmup routine. You're also just going to gain some extra coordination because you're doing all these extra movements.
Speaker 3:And if you've ever seen like a pro runner before a track race do a series of drills and then they're just running at four minute mile pace and it looks so graceful and effortless, part of that is because they get really good at these sorts of mobility exercises and drills. So it's really going to help your overall coordination as well. And then, of course, you're just going to feel better before you know as you go running. You know that first mile is often the worst mile for a lot of runners. You know it's where you don't feel good. You're just warming up into it. Your heart rate can spike. A lot of the things that happen in the first mile of a run are not the most pleasant things that can happen, and the dynamic warmup can help again bridge that gap, so that you just feel better in the first five or 10 minutes of your run.
Speaker 1:I know my buddy, mike Meeker, down at Big Tree Fitness, is going to love that description of a dynamic warm-up, because he would always ask us to do very similar things to what you said and we'd all groan and, ah, come on, mike, we just want to go, we just want to throw the tire and lift heavy weights. We don't want to. You know we're not doing karaoke's and lunges and you know high knees and whatnot. So he will really appreciate that definition and description of it and we will definitely forward that part right there over to the Akron Rugby Club, who despises dynamic warm-ups for just about anything. So thank you for that, jason. That's very useful information and something that I should probably do more often before, both before lifting and running, since I'm also getting up there in age as well.
Speaker 3:I think one of the hardest parts of of either strength training or, you know, this dynamic warmup concept is not just making it a habit but figuring out what to do in the first place. You know, like okay, I'm going to resolve to do better at warming up dynamically. Like okay, then what do I do? Like Jason said, a couple lunges and leg swings. I would just follow a good routine, and there's a lot of warm up routines that that are out there. I've published a couple that I think are really helpful. So anyone can just go on strength running and search warmup routine and you're going to get a couple of warmup routines that you can just plug right into your training. You don't have to really learn any new movements because most of the movements are things that we already know. But if there are any new exercises, I think that's just a good opportunity to learn some new movements and keep kind of gaining those different movement skills.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, definitely the professionals do it. What do you think about jump rope, jumping rope, jason?
Speaker 3:I think it can be a very helpful tool, especially for men over 40, to help prevent Achilles injuries, which are unfortunately quite common among, like masters and older men.
Speaker 3:We seem to just really experience a fair amount of muscle atrophy in our lower legs and that just puts our Achilles at an increased risk of getting some sort of tendinopathy.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, doing some type of tendon work that can include jumping rope I think it's very uh instructive that runners in their sixties and seventies have a hard time doing any kind of jumping, and so if we can maintain that ability uh into our later years, it's going to help us with health, it's going to help us with performance. And that, to me, is sort of like this benchmark movement where you know if, if you can't do a little bit of jump rope, you're gonna have a really hard time running, because running is essentially just a series of very coordinated one legged hops from one leg to the other, and that's kind of similar to what we're doing with jump rope. Often we're doing with two legs, so it's sort of should be easier, and so, yeah, I look at that as a almost like a drill or part of a warmup process that we could do to help gain a little bit more resiliency in our lower legs.
Speaker 1:Went running with a professional trail runner and we get out of the car he's got a bag with him, pulls out a jump rope and he's I'm like, dude, I, I don't know what you think we're doing here today, but I don't think it requires you jumping rope to be anywhere near me. So I that's why I wanted to ask, because I figured there was a reason he was doing it. Now that makes that makes sense, that of why that would be a thing that probably a lot of runners do. Now that you describe it like that.
Speaker 3:So you know it's very similar to jumping rope. Is skipping that? So you know what's very similar to jumping rope is skipping. And I don't mean as a certain drill, you know, a skips, b skips some very formal, complicated pro runner drill. You know I just did a podcast episode with Stuart McMillan. He's coached like dozens of Olympic sprinters. He's arguably one of the most accomplished sprint coaches right now in the world.
Speaker 3:We were talking about learning sprint mechanics and you know what he advised runners to do which I thought was just kind of hilarious is to do a lot of skipping and not the formal stuff.
Speaker 3:We're talking about skipping down the street like you're, you're, it's a happy, sunny spring day and you're excited to go check the mail like Miss Daisy. Skipping down the sidewalk, like that kind of very informal skipping. And here we have one of the best coaches in the world saying this is actually really beneficial. It's going to promote some of the stiffness that you need in your ankle, your knee and your hip joints the same kind of stiffness that you need as a sprinter ankle, your knee and your hip joints the same kind of stiffness that you need as a sprinter. So, just like jumping rope, I think skipping this kind of very quick movements where we get down on the ground with our foot but then boom, we're getting off the ground and we're trying to explode out with, you know, a more forceful foot strike. Really helpful for our running form, for our health and for tendon health too.
Speaker 1:Something else I learned today, rob, we're always learning stuff on this show now.
Speaker 2:We skip a lot. Casey, I'm just walking down the street and start skipping.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love skipping. I feel like the only thing that hurts is my ego, but I need to let that go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it attracts a little bit of attention, but you know it's good for me.
Speaker 1:I live in a weird neighborhood, but I think they might talk about me if I start skipping around the neighborhood.
Speaker 2:Oh, they're already talking about your case?
Speaker 1:yes, yeah, they do.
Speaker 3:The guy who just if they're not talking about you, then, then what are you doing like? Yeah you gotta make a name for yourself over there yeah, well, I, I'm the lap guy.
Speaker 1:We have a guy named the wobbler. It's a really cool neighborhood, so we're awesome over here in Highland Square in Akron, Ohio. I'm going to start. Yeah, Rob, I'm going to start skipping now, I think, not just walking around the neighborhood skipping. Now one question I had for you, Jason, in regards to strength. So what I did is I took 12 weeks Well, I didn't take it off, but I was still running in there but where I was really I was starting to ramp up to what I felt was I didn't want to lift any heavier than it, squatting-wise 245-pound reps. I didn't want to go any higher than that. I didn't feel like there was any really necessary reason for me to, but I stopped going up as I started my build now for canyons the running part and I brought back down the weight. Is there something that you advise people that you coach, of how to kind of blend the two in together once you start to like go for your goal race Is there? Do you have a plan of attack with that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think in a perfect world your strength training might be periodized in a similar way as your running training plan. So you know, if you've got a 12 week plan gearing you up for a certain race, periodization is the fact that, well, week one is going to look different than week six, it's going to look different than week 12. And the priorities of training change over time. You know, typically for runners we have a lower intensity beginning of the training program. We're building mileage, we're building our long run, we're adding in workouts, but you know they're not going to be as race specific or difficult as what we're going to see in the final third of the training cycle. For example, I think it's beneficial to think of our weightlifting in a similar way, where you know and of course this breaks down if you're like 100 meter sprinter or if you're training for a really long ultra marathon. But for most of us, you know, the race that we're training for has some element of intensity to it and our weightlifting should prepare us for that as well. And so the evolution of weightlifting over the course of a season. You might gradually add a little bit of weight over time, but it's not the focus, it's not the number one focus. I think the number one focus has to be kind of transitioning from higher rep schemes to lower rep schemes, potentially with slightly higher weight, a little bit more focus on power and speed. So you might start doing squats but then eight weeks later you're doing more Olympic type of lifts, a little bit more explosive lifts, because you're basically trying to teach your body how to produce force very quickly. And when you're running fast, that's exactly what you're doing You're hitting the ground with your foot, you're producing a tremendous amount of force and you're doing it in less than a tenth of a second. So that's why we have to be strong, but also be able to express that strength very quickly, which is the definition of power. So we need to be strong and do it very explosively, in a very quick way, and that's going to really help with our running economy and our sprinting speed. So you know, especially if you're a middle distance runner, if you're training for the 5k, the 10k, you know, even for the marathon and the half marathon, but particularly for the slightly shorter distances, lifting heavy and lifting explosively near the end of your training cycle is really going to help you better express some of that strength in a running specific way, which is running fast, running really fast.
Speaker 3:So yeah, like I agree with the idea that you shouldn't kind of mindlessly increase weight, like the goal isn't more weight is better. You know, I think it's very helpful to understand that the movement itself is probably just as important as the weight that you're putting up. And as long as you're lifting, you know, a challenging weight, you don't have to increase it every week. You know, I think that's that's akin to trying to run more mileage every week or trying to run more challenging workouts every week, and that's a really easy way to either get burned out or to get yourself injured. Also, understanding that you know our weightlifting is supplemental to our running. It's not the main thing is there to enhance our running.
Speaker 3:So if your workouts are long enough, intense enough or high volume enough, you're probably going to eat into your running gains. And if at any point, you're feeling like you know I'm too sore from lifting to go do the run that I need to do or I need to take a day off from running, this workout has to be slower because I'm sore. Any of those things happen. We need to dial back the intensity or volume of the lifting, because it's starting to actually interfere with the running. So all that to say, I'm not. You know I don't get too bent out of shape if runners don't want to progress too much over the course of their season, but as long as they're challenging themselves. Maybe adding five pounds, 10 pounds, every three or four weeks is an appropriate way to go about it, but most of the gains are going to come from lifting quicker or lifting more explosively. Got it? Thanks, coach.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:So, jason, I know we're running out of time, but I have to ask you cause I have a buddy who swears by it on this topic what do you think of weight vests and increasing the weight, decreasing the weight, kind of following a similar pattern to what you just said? I've tried it and I can't. I can't run with the weight vest, it just my knees, hips and I can't run with a weight vest.
Speaker 3:It's just my knees, hips. Yeah, I think running with a weight vest might not be the smartest move. It's not something that I've seen in literally any running book and I've read most of them. Nor have I heard any coaches talk about it and I don't know of any high-level runners who do it. I mean, it depends on what application that you're really talking about.
Speaker 3:Like, I don't think running with a weight vest might be a good idea, maybe unless you're an ultra runner who's getting ready for, you know, an ultra marathon where you're going to hold a vest with fluids, with fuel, you know, maybe with some extra gear, a first aid kit, etc.
Speaker 3:And so you're training for that stress. You know, maybe you put extra gear, a first aid kit, etc. And so you're training for that stress. You know, maybe you put an extra five or 10 pounds on than what you're expecting from the vest and that can be an appropriate stimulus. It does make me a little worried from an injury perspective, because you're just putting all this extra weight onto your joints and you know, every time that you take a stride, you're absorbing a certain, you know, multiple of your body weight. I just worry that we're just adding unnecessary stress because there's a lot of better, more effective ways of becoming a stronger runner than running with a weight vest. I think hiking with a weight vest, maybe during the base phase of training or during you know a period of time where you're not running a lot, might actually be more beneficial because it's lower intensity. It's sort of creating the more durable structures in your body that are going to be more likely to withstand higher mileages and harder workouts later on, when you're doing some of that more specific work.
Speaker 2:I'm scratching off the list, so hey.
Speaker 3:I have a weight vest myself and, uh, it has its uses for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I have one as well. Uh, I don't never ran in it, but I have hiked in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it has.
Speaker 1:It definitely has its purpose and I use it.
Speaker 3:So I'm a big believer in dad fitness and so if there's a day where I can't run and I'm hanging out with my kids, I could just see playing with my kids in the house wearing a weight vest as as an alternative to my normally scheduled workout. So you know, for the busy parents out there who might need to get creative to get in a training session, I think it can be a useful tool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're always looking for useful tools, especially here at the Hobby Jogger, so we certainly appreciate that Bit of advice there as well. Jason, and again, thank you so much for your time. I know you're busy and you've got a million things to do. You've got your own podcast, which is awesome. Big fan of it. Shout out to my buddy His name's Frenchie David DeFrancesco. He's an Akron rugby player. He was following you, jason, he goes. I texted him before this. I was like, do you listen to his podcast? He goes. Well, I was going to. I was looking for some hacks and how to get better real quick and get fit real quick. But that guy just wanted me to be consistent and actually work out and do things the right way. So Frenchy is following you on Instagram, uh, of Akron Rugby.
Speaker 3:But yeah, he, he was looking for a quick, quick fix and they ain't out there unfortunately, running is a very long-term type of endeavor and the the longer you stick with it, the better you're gonna be. And the human body is tricky man. It physiology can't be rushed. And if you want to gain the endurance needed to run even like 10k, I mean let's, can we just like that's a long way, 6.2 miles. If someone wants to go run six plus miles fast, well, we really need to change your body and that's a multi-year process.
Speaker 3:So you know, on the one hand that's kind of depressing oh man, I got to do this for years but on the other hand it means you're going to have years of progress and you're not going to achieve everything you could in a matter of months. So I actually find that a little bit more fun. You know, I had like six, eight years of my running career where I improved every single year and and that's the stuff that gets you hooked on the sport. I love it. It's super fun and I just love that feeling of gradually chipping away at finish times. It just just makes you feel like you're on this never-ending wheel of progress and that's the place to be. It's so fun.
Speaker 1:Jason, real quick before we go here. Where can our listeners find you?
Speaker 3:You can check out the Strength Running Podcast wherever you prefer to get your podcasts. I think it's available pretty much anywhere Apple, spotify, etc. Etc. Strengthrunningcom is my home base where you can find more info about our training programs. We have email courses on different topics, including strength training, if you wanted to learn more about that, as well as the Strength Running YouTube channel. So if you like videos, if you want to see some of the cool places in Colorado that I'm running, you can check out the Strength Running YouTube channel. So if you like videos, if you want to see some of the cool places in Colorado that I'm running, you can check out the Strength Running YouTube channel too.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much again, jason. It was a pleasure to finally meet you after hours of listening to you putting the face with the voice. I wish you all the best.
Speaker 3:Well, casey, rob, thanks so much for your time, guys, this was fun.