The Hobby Jogger Podcast
Welcome to The Hobby Jogger Podcast, where elite athletes and ham-and-eggers lace up their stories. We explore the common ground that running creates from the world-class runner to the hobbyist hitting the pavement, trail or treadmill. Expect a blend of inspiration, laughter and the shared joy that makes every step count. Join us on this journey, where every run is a story worth sharing.
The Hobby Jogger Podcast
E26 | Race Directing the Laurel Highland Ultras with Dann & Jim
Ever wondered what it takes to breathe new life into a legendary race without losing its soul? Dann and Jim from Redpoint Productions share the story behind their takeover of the iconic Laurel Highlands Ultra, an event that has captivated runners for over four decades. You'll hear all about their strategic blend of honoring tradition while embracing necessary innovations like digital sign-ups and modern facilities.
Join us for an introspective and passionate discussion on the art of race directing, where Dann and Jim reveal the dedication it takes to manage ultra-endurance events. Whether you're a runner, a race organizer, or just curious about the behind-the-scenes intricacies, this episode offers a heartfelt exploration of what makes ultra races truly special.
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Hobby Jogger. We've got a great episode in store for you. I'm once again joined by my co-host with the most, Mr Rob Myers. Rob, how are you today?
Rob:I'm doing well, excited to talk to the RDs of one of my favorite races.
Casey:My favorite race, for sure. Also, how's the ankle from the 50K?
Rob:It's doing better. I've gone out for a couple of short ones, so I don't think there's any real damage, but a little sore. Glad to hear that.
Casey:Glad to hear that you recovered. That's a big part of what we do here in the ultra scene. But yes, we do have two race directors, two race organizers I don't know what to call them. They are the host of my favorite race, Laurel Highlands Ultra, which has a 50K, 70 mile and a relay. Also a host of other races. They have a company, Red Point Productions. Hopefully I got that right. That's coming off of memory, but I am joined by Dan and Jim of Red Point Productions. How are you doing?
Dann:Good, what's up guys?
Jim:All right, good to be with you guys.
Casey:Good for you guys to be here. We certainly appreciate it and look forward to getting into what it takes to actually run a race. I've been trying to get a couple race directors on before. I know it's super busy, but I think it's an interesting story on before. I know super busy, you know it's, but I think it's an interesting story because I know I hear complaining to race directors all the time about things that are likely out of their control. I never complained because I don't want to do the job, and if I don't want to do the job, I never complained about it.
Rob:Well, that's not a hundred percent, true, Casey. On the last episode you did fill out a survey and did a little bit of complaining last episode.
Casey:You uh did fill out a survey and did a little bit of complaining. I did, I, I did okay, so I was upset that it was justified. Like I'm not questioning it, the race that we ran had a food truck and the food truck was corn dogs. I felt a little bit uninspired yes I. I wasn't complaining as much, as maybe giving them a little bit of feedback is what I was doing.
Rob:Feedback's always good right Constructive criticism. $10 hot dogs or $10 corn dogs are probably not the best at the end of a very expensive race.
Casey:Yeah, yeah, but we're not complaining.
Dann:No, not at all. No, that's just making it better for everyone. I think at the end of the very expensive race, yeah, yeah, but we're not complaining. No, not at all. No, it's, that's. That's just making it better for everyone.
Casey:I think at the end of the day, right, yeah, oh, that's all I'm trying to do make the experience better for them, for me, especially for me, mostly for me. But I digress, welcome to the show. Thanks again, so much for joining us. Laurel Highlands Ultra I think that's probably what you're most known for at Red Point Productions.
Dann:That's correct. Yeah, for sure. We were able to take over the reins in the fantastic year of 2020. We were passed off the reins in late 2019, after 40 years, so it's definitely our most well-known race at this point and we're happy, super happy, to be a part of the community and have the ability to to keep that race alive now that I think that's a an important thing that I'd like to go into a little more detail about of how you take over race, because that is a very old it's.
Casey:I don't want to say it's hyper local, because it's definitely nationally known, but it was such a highly regarded race and when you say take over, I imagine after 40 years they were likely looking for someone to succeed them in taking it over.
Jim:So you know, when it began, it was started by a couple of brothers who owned it for 20 years, and then a husband and wife and a friend took over for another 20 years. And then, yeah, after those 20 years, and then a husband and wife and a friend took over for another 20 years, and then, yeah, after those 20 years, they were ready to start to step aside. Absolutely, we were really excited to be a part of the conversation, but a little daunting right To take over a race 40 years old, to start to consider how do you maintain the historicity of something like that while you know, making it current and accessible and bringing our own personal flair to the event.
Casey:That is definitely a not a struggle, but a lot of consideration going into that yeah, because I think there's a a certain feeling right now when we hear of taking over a race, like oh no, this big company came in and just bought up the race. But the reality of things are, people get older, people move on with things in life and if we want these cool things to continue, somebody does need to step up and and put the time in, and I know for all the races that you run, they're very time consuming yeah, for sure, that's the nature of the sport, right?
Dann:we we do our own production ultras every time. We we put people on the trail, for sure, yeah, and I think, I think that the the language is always tricky because you're trying to portray what taking over the reins looks like, as opposed to the purchase of an event or something like that, and and the reality of is, especially with laurel, it just took a few years. It took a few years of us being in the community. It took a few years of us getting on the trail and running with people and people beginning to trust that we weren't, we weren't just going to come in there.
Dann:You know, a little bit of hindsight, taking a look at the fact that our the name of the company red point productions, was dropped on it as the new uh race directing entity, you know, might have, might have put us a little further back in the building community thing than if it had just been damn, jim and benny, because that's really what it was at the end of the day.
Dann:You know it was three individuals with unique, unique kind of connection and history in ultra running and in the community. Jim lived out there for 15 years prior to this. So yeah, so hindsight thinking about that, maybe being a little careful about how it was portrayed would have helped a little. But at the end of the day, like it's really nice to be on the other side of connecting with people, understanding what the community is, what they want from the race, and then being able to just be out there, what the community is, what they want from the race, and then being able to just be out there and, year after year, seeing more and more familiar faces, that's where it gets to be really fun.
Casey:Yeah, it certainly feels that that race, in particular of the ones I've gone and done, has a very community vibe to it. Very local People do come from out of state, from all over the place, to run it, but it does seem very localized and then it is a very important part of that community. We've had Bryn Cunningham on, who I know. You know Bryn, but she talks glowingly about how much that means to that area, just how cool it is and something different. And I know I mean, since I was a kid at least I knew about the race.
Casey:You know that these people run 70 miles down this. You know the Laurel Highlands trail. We all knew the Laurel Highlands trail. You know growing up around there. So, yeah, big part of the community and glad that the three of you were able to take it over. And yeah, hey, you learn from your mistakes of how I guess when you, when you came in of you know how to present things, because the perception of things certainly does matter to people, especially in the running community, as we've. We've definitely learned over the years, huh, rob.
Rob:Yeah, a hundred percent, and I think it's. It's like any other business or what's the alternative if you're a local and it's something you love a race, a business, your favorite pizza shop down the street you know the owners get old. They want to sell it to somebody else that's going to breathe new life into it and the alternative is it goes away, right. So I think if people are honest with themselves, the locals in the community, and really think about it, I mean, it's a good thing to pass the baton. You're going to hold on to it for a long time and just make it better. That's awesome.
Jim:Yeah, you're going to hold on to it for a long time and just make it better. That's awesome, yeah, and I think it's the unknown that made people nervous. They didn't know what to expect when Redpoint Productions took over and so, as Dan said, I think it took a couple of years for them to realize yeah, we want to keep it the same. We want to stay again with the historicity, the ethos that this race has always had. We understand the love of the trail. You know that people have and that's what we want to, to keep. But it was the unknown. What's going to change? How are they going to manipulate or, you know, adjust the race? We wanted to keep it the same as much as possible that makes sense.
Rob:I mean, we've seen other races kind of go sideways. When somebody new takes over, Prices go up, quality goes down. I get that from a running perspective, but I think from local community. Really, you have to take a step back and see what's the alternative. Right, the race goes away. Nobody wants that, but I get it. Takes a little bit of time for everyone to get on board. Get to know you.
Casey:Well, they do have an advantage with price, rob, because the website is still hosted on Angelfirecom. It's true, I wasn't going to bring it up. Yeah, the web hosting costs are very low for for Redpoint Productions there, because it's it's the uh, the green, the green site.
Dann:You know everybody knows a green site that was, uh, there's, there's a few things that that we were able to, kind of like jim was dying, kind of update. You know we brought in porta potties to the aid stations. You know ground, these are, these are, these are uh things on in response to our corndog emails. You know we have to, we're responding to what people are asking for and those things. You know that makes sense without, you know, sacrificing the challenge of the event or or anything. But yeah, that the green website couldn't go anywhere, for it's going to stick around for a little bit.
Casey:That's awesome that you kept it, cause that is a relic from well, I don't know what it might be on angel fire I don't actually know hosted who's hosted it, but three days ago, daddy, so it's pretty old, I think it does.
Casey:Yeah, so I mean that was just awesome that you kept it, because it's kind of a nod to what it's been and I feel like you've pretty well kept it, the ethos of the race, everything pretty much the same, correct. I mean, yeah, port-a-johns are great, that's good. We like Port-A-Johns. I don't want to have to, you know, in the middle of the woods, so, but you've basically kept it the same, right.
Jim:Yeah, one of the biggest things that we shifted from was the mail-in entry right. Like when we took over in 2020, people were still sending in paper checks to my house and I got to say, on one hand, I loved it Getting all that mail who doesn't want to receive mail? But, oh my God, the data entry. So moving from mail-in checks to ultra sign-up was a pretty big shift and there was some pushback. Ultimately, of course, is the right move. I got to say I miss it a little.
Casey:I don't have a check to send you.
Dann:And that was part of it. Right through the process, we were like we're going to sit there and this is honestly talking in big terms of race directing. This is a lot of it. It's like we can make this change, we can adapt, we can change an existing thing that's been happening for an event for a little while, but what's kickback going to be? Are people going to be frustrated that it changed? Like you said, change the ethos, change the tradition, or is it something that's going to at the end of the day?
Dann:The decision to stop the mailing was exactly that. It was like inclusiveness. It's like how many people and the younger generation of ultra racers have a check to even mail in, and so, or print out a PDF to mail with the check with their application, or know like and so we just got to the point where we were like love the idea, love the nostalgia behind it, and we ended up coming out with this with this three-point entry system in the fall. The day that it opens is still unannounced, it's still a surprise. And then we've we've gone to this. You know, three part 70, 70, 70, sign up and you know, in honor of the 70 miles of trail where we do these kind of like based out time. So if you work when the first, when the race opens during that time and you can't get to a computer, you got another chance to get back on the computer. So we're really trying to encompass a lot of the things that were kind of exclusive, I think, for access for people to get in the race.
Casey:And I really like how you do the signups as well, because it's it is still first, it's not a lottery, so you don't just randomly get drawn and you have certainly have enough people interested in running the race that it's not a problem for you to fill it. But you do evenly and I I believe, if I remember correctly from last year, you even have different times like one might open up in the morning and the afternoon and the evening, so that, hey, if you're a nurse, that's on.
Casey:You know people that work all sorts of different jobs. A chance to enter the race which is. Hats off to you for that that's that's that's that's an improvement. I'm sure the diehards hated to see the check go, but I would not be running 50K if I had to send you. I had to go get a stamp, find a check, mail it. Yeah, I just like. Yeah, we'll find something else to do that day, yeah, you have so many unique traditions.
Rob:Has there been a year where you forgot something? Like maybe year one, year two? You're like oh, wait a minute, we forgot to do the one thing that they've always done for the past 20 years.
Jim:Remember, the year that we took over was COVID in-person. Events were changing drastically, so we took over a really old event that we wanted to keep the same and all of a sudden everything had to change.
Dann:Staggered starts, everything. It was like it blew it up. So it was a little bit of a balance right. It was to our advantage to a certain extent, because we were changing a few things but not a lot. But we were like, oh, we have to do it because of covid, which is true for most of the changes we made.
Dann:I think the first two years were hard. We weren't able to do the pre-race dinner and, uh, pack a pickup and that was like always a tradition with this event on friday night, and so that was kind of a bummer. We missed those opportunity those first two years to kind of connect with people and have you know, just have people out that were coming in from out of town and things like that, but been able to get back to that, which is which has been a lot of fun. And this past year we were able to do like a small ceremony with past race directors and some aid station workers that have been around for, you know, a decade or two and just kind of like we're never able to do anything to kind of honor the pass off, you know. So that was pretty cool. It's 45th anniversary and we had a good time with that.
Casey:That's awesome yeah, and it was funny that when we came out there and ran the relay the first year, my girlfriend had only been to like big marathons. So you know I was telling her like hype and I was like yeah, this is a really big ultra that they run and you know tons of people do this and we get there and she's like this is the starting line yeah, you and four other people yeah, it's uh, these guys just kind of say go, and that's it like yeah, and there was really no hype too.
Dann:We asked people to come get your packet and then return to your car until your start time, like we were really working hard to prevent any mass you know mass gatherings. Yeah, so it was a little bit of a buzzkill, for sure but I don't.
Casey:That's, that's part of what makes the race so endearing to me is just the just the low key. Well, the trail, but then like the low keenness of it and and how does that compare to some of your other events? Uh, that you guys run, is it? Do you guys try and keep it or do, I guess, do different things at different try and do different things at different races?
Dann:yeah, the other races are all um areas that I've been, I and jim has been involved um like putting on races for the past 15 years or so. So way back in the day, to put a little history to all of this, and in my history worked with North Face, ecs, rip, and so we used to do a lot of races for them. So Bear Mountain, where Suffern Bear is hosted, is one of those spaces where helped design the course there and direct the course for years. So it was kind of a when COVID came around and that event wasn't happening anymore. It was like kind of intuitive for a local trail that I spent a lot of time on running and training to become a space where we could put on an ultra Staten Island similar situation.
Dann:Spent a lot of time there during COVID, hiking with the dog and the kids and just kind of getting out and spending time on the trail when we weren't really allowed to go anywhere else, and so I, my wheels were just turning that whole time, you know, just seeing different, different areas, different places we could, we could go and how to patch, patch it all together and then while we which is where our, our, while we on the trail fest is that was my first ever race. Directed event was a. It was an adventure race on the backend of, you know, eco challenge in the late twos and hosted I directed an event there and then I always wanted to get back and it just took a little bit of a little bit of time to get back there.
Rob:So, and covid, you know covid bump post covid bump so, other than, uh, laurel, highlands, which, what's your second favorite race? Because I've only run laurel, so you have to recommend all right there.
Dann:Well, we got the fall classic coming, so I don't know that, might that might quickly take a second place. I, you know new york, new york city, the nyc trail mix. It's really super unique. You know it's the same similar conversation every time. I say something to somebody like there's trails there, and you're like yup, and then they're like 35 miles of trail. They're like can't be a lot. You're like actually, you know there's a decent amount. So it's kind of the. It's the contrast of actually being in new york city proper and then also feeling like at many moments like you're in the middle of the woods, uh, you can't see houses, even in the, you know, november race and we're doing a loop, a loop course on that, because there is a limited amount of trails you can find without too many street crossings. But it's it's really unique, it's a, it's a, it's a good vibe, it's fun, it's a fun space.
Dann:And you get we got shuttles coming from, ferries from manhattan. You know we got like multi-mode transportation, which is rare in the ultra world. Right, like accessing, getting to trailheads where races are held is really hard, um, and and we have the capacity to to get there by public transportation with a little help of some shuttles. It's uh, I think that's probably my number two right now. What time of year is that race? That's November, november 16th, this year mid-November, coming two weeks after the marathon. So we've had a few racers. Last year was the inaugural year and we had a few racers use the New York City Marathon as a very expensive tune-up for the 50-miler yeah, that's a pricey tune-up. For the 50 miler yeah, that's a that's a pricey tune-up, I think yeah, a little bit, it's all about vibes.
Casey:You know it's all about vibes. Yeah, I mean, there's some hills on those bridges that I've talked about. You know bridges are not flat.
Dann:Yeah, for sure from pittsburgh.
Casey:I definitely, definitely learned that. But yeah, very cool, very wide range of races that you run. You also do a triathlon.
Dann:Yeah, that was also one of my first races I ever did when they were big. Getting into race directing was really interesting. I'm one of the few I think there's a few of us around a full-time race director. It's a rare niche within this ultra endurance world, but I've been doing it for a long time. So triathlon and obstacle course running has plateaued to a certain degree and so there's not as many opportunities out there, and I'm really happy to be spending more time on the trails doing ultras, which is what I like to do, so that works.
Casey:Good, we're definitely happy to have you organizing these, still paying respect to how they used to be and modernizing them. I'll just sign up Things like that. So we're glad that you're both still honoring those things and moving forward, and hopefully you pick up a few more races along the way, because they are, from my experience, what you've run, excellent. I didn't even fill out the complaint card. Yeah Well, maybe Rocky Laurel Highland's a bit too Rocky, maybe.
Rob:Yeah, there's a few too many Rocks. You need to do something about that.
Dann:A little windy straighten that out, you know.
Casey:Yeah, if you two could just have a Rock cleanup day for me.
Dann:Laurel was actually the first trail race I ever did. I did the relay back in 2011, maybe or 2012, and had just kind of a classic introduction to it. I did the first leg, so I did the first 19. I mean, yeah, first you're climbing for eight miles out of there, you know, and just getting out of the Ohio pile. And I just remember this very distinct moment where I realized I liked it and hated it at the same time, which I think is the contrast of ultra running at the end of the day, but I saw the sun come up, there was this gorgeous sunrise. I saw it peak up and I looked up for a split second and just caught a stump, just kicked it as hard as I could, no chance of rolling out of it, just pancaked down, fell on the ground, wiped myself off, you know, felt all hardcore and just kept on going. But it was. It was a good introduction of trail running.
Casey:Yeah, I, I was. I was left bloody and beaten after last year's 50 K it's it's tough for sure, yeah, I saw you at the finish.
Dann:That was a pretty worn on that one.
Casey:Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a rough day out there. Jim, are you also a trail runner?
Jim:I used to be COVID got me pretty bad.
Casey:Okay.
Jim:And so, since COVID got me back in 2020, I have not been able to put down miles.
Casey:Oh man, I'm sorry to hear that.
Jim:It's okay. It's okay, you know. You start to figure out what life looks like after that. And, yeah, it's all right, I still play in the woods on the regular, but I can't lay down miles like I used to.
Casey:That's probably the most important thing, at least that you get to play in the woods. That's pretty much why I'm involved in this community is just getting out and reason to play in the woods. So yeah, I'm definitely sorry to hear that, but hey, glad you're still involved and out there playing in the woods.
Casey:Now you have all these races and I don't want to get into the overall logistics of you do it, but just an individual race. How does your year look? I guess we can use Laurel Highlands for this example, because I'm familiar with it. What is the first stage of planning? Because I'm sure there's a lot that goes into this. It's not easy. You have to get volunteers, stock aid stations. Fortunately you guys don't have to design the course because it's follow the yellow marks. That's pretty good, because I know a couple other RDs, I know that's kind of a got to map out the course and stuff, but that's pretty well done for you. So what like logistically, how does it? Does your year look? Does it kick off? Can you take us through that process a little bit?
Dann:Can I ask you a question first?
Casey:Absolutely.
Dann:Are you looking to put a race on anytime soon, cause you sound a lot like you know a racer that walked up to me and wants to put their own race on. I'm giving some trade secrets.
Rob:You did say that. Come on, casey, again, you already have one. You are an.
Casey:RD. I am an RD of the Highland Square, beer Mile.
Dann:Okay, that's fair. That's fair. I need yeah, that's when's that happened. I think I have that on the calendar.
Casey:Fourth of July Very stringent to get into.
Rob:I was going to say it's really, really difficult, we do give away Platinum Passes.
Casey:Maybe this year I'll make Laurel Highlands one of the Platinum Pass races. None of the Platinum Passes showed up last year, though, so it's not going real well. Yeah, absolutely, Other than my beer mile, I mean. I actually I don't want to say who they were, but I had people complaining about possible cheating, and I kind of looked at him and I was like that's kind of the vibe of a beer mile, is it not?
Dann:I mean, you know you're going into it.
Casey:Someone may or may not have used their child to lodge the complaint against another runner.
Dann:Got it. So it's passive, aggressive complaint system.
Casey:Did you get the survey? I don't send out a survey. That'd be a good tip for you.
Dann:Let them come to you, just let them come to you.
Casey:Yeah, Jim and Dan don't send out a survey.
Dann:Got it Always there it is. There's the feedback we were looking for.
Casey:Yeah, and anytime there's a question, it's just that's what I felt like doing. I don't know you're asking the wrong person you're the racer actor. Listen, we're gonna run up and down the street four times and drink four beers, so there, it is, course, map.
Dann:Um, yeah, so to answer your question, I there's I think there's there's a few different tiers. I mean, obviously, the partnership with with the land, whoever is managing the land right. So in this case, it's DCNR that's always got to be the front runner. I've seen lots of organizations throw out ticket sales way before having agreements with landowners and venues, and it's always a risky business you two have a very unique relationship with the landowner because it's is it a park that the majority of the race runs through Plus Seven Spring.
Dann:It's managed by Department of Conservation and Natural Resources of Pennsylvania, and so that who that's? Who holds the overall thing. So they're, and they're awesome. They have just been amazing to work with. Uh, so, as we talked about, like taking over the reins of an organization, like like a race like this is sometimes there's even more apprehension from from, you know, groups like that that have been working with someone else for so long could have even been a moment where they might have said, well, we're kind of done now, you know so, because the agreement ran out or something, um, and they've been happy. I think we walked in the door within the first year. They they extended our special events agreement another decade or something, which is awesome and really good and is rare, I think, in this world for somebody to be that confident and excited to part in partnership, to to do that.
Jim:So that's cool and that really speaks to the relationship that the previous race directors had. Yeah, like there was so much trust built over the years and the introductions when they were made, like there was trust already inherent in our relationship.
Casey:Yeah, that's. That's super important. You know you guys were going to put on a quality event and things would be taken care of properly.
Dann:Yeah, and so first year you know, first year events are always tricky. They're always. You have to establish that and build it and then after that it's really just, you know, communicating with anyone who's been involved in the past and making sure your usual suspects are all involved and excited to be out there again. In case of Laurel Highlands, it is like dozens and dozens of volunteers that were around a long time before us. So we really just stepped in to organize all of what was already happening.
Dann:These are people who store aid stations in their houses and garages and sheds year long, just to come back and set it up for a day and go out and pick up all the supplies for their aid station and give it that flair. So that's pretty cool. So getting in touch with those people and then just kind of, as it gets closer and closer, you know, starting to really dial in on all the details and thinking about the things you can switch up and put some flares on, whether it's the premiums you're passing out to people, those kind of things. So it's a little bit of a balance of, like we talked about at the beginning, maintaining the things that work really well, what people are expecting, and then being able to fine-tune those logistics and and perks I guess, racer premiums and things that people really enjoy as well.
Dann:I, I can't I can't tell you how many people this past weekend had suffered walked up to the table and saw a sticker. I'm like this is why I'm here. So it's like you're not in that thing. You're like got it. Every race has to have a sticker now.
Casey:Yeah, I mean, I still use your coaster, the Laurel Highlands coaster, all the time, probably every day, and it's stuff like that that I really like. I don't you know, metal, whatever, I'm just going to toss it somewhere. But yeah, when a race gives me something like that, whether it's a coffee mug or a coaster, that's something I really do appreciate is my favorite. Or a t-shirt I do have the Laurel Highlands t-shirt.
Dann:T-shirts are great for everything, yeah, fair.
Rob:I love the Laurel t-shirts. They're some of my favorites.
Jim:We're just dealing with t-shirts today.
Casey:Sweet, whatever fabric you used last year, always use that because that's my favorite. Yeah, I don't know if it costs more or if it costs less, but that's the one I like. I I don't.
Rob:I wish I knew what it was see, I like the one three years ago. I want you guys to use that one. That was my favorite.
Casey:This is why I'm not a ranger. This is why I'm not arranging.
Dann:This is this is why we don't put, is why we don't put out surveys.
Rob:Yeah, planet safe?
Casey:yeah, you have 16 different recommendations for the t-shirt, which is probably pretty accurate of what would happen. The course I know part of the course goes through seven springs resort, which is owned by a company. I'm not going to mention the company, but have you had any issues with them and the race?
Dann:No, not at all. We immediately, on some of the, some of the times in the past few years that have gotten a little heated, we reached out to, to our, our connections at, at, in DCNR and who we hold the permit with, and just kind of gave them a heads up, made sure they were aware of it, talked through if they saw any, if they were concerned at all about it.
Dann:I don't know if this is exactly the right words. They essentially have priority on the domain for the trail that goes through to a certain extent. There's really not much there that a ski mountain can do. It's such a small portion of the course as well. But yeah, we haven't had any negative interactions or anything, so that's good.
Casey:Bob Nutting. When he owned it he didn't have a little tool booth at the top there, I imagine huh.
Dann:Yeah, it's possible. I don't know. Maybe they rewrote it for a reason.
Casey:I don't know. Yeah, I remember that was yeah, he sold it off a few years ago. Bob Nutting, Pittsburgh Pirates owner, is what we're talking about Notoriously cheap. I'm a big Pirates fan not a big.
Casey:Bob Nutting fan. So glad that you haven't had any issues with that, because that was kind of one thing I was a little bit worried about. It can always affect races. You have to have a course to run it on. If there's some outside influence on it, that's good to hear. Also, it has to be the only race that goes over a major interstate that I've seen will turn pike.
Dann:I think so. Yeah, there's just two years in there where it got rerouted because of the, the rebuilding of the, the pedestrian bridge, but uh, but yeah, now it's, it's great, it's a fun thing to do, for sure, it's a. You pop out of the woods, it's a unique feeling, right, the really cool part of the course, for sure yeah, that's yeah.
Casey:I've yet to run the 70. I think I remembered at about mile 25 why I didn't sign up for the 70 last year. I was like yeah it's a little bit tougher than I remember. I don't remember it being this rocky. So, yeah, maybe next year I'll do the 70. We'll see what we got planned. So you got the course, you got the pre-race, you've got the T-shirts. We're getting that done in October. Is it for the T-shirts you're looking for, jim? Is that for Laurel Highlands or is it another event you have?
Jim:Well, we have the fall classic coming up, so we want to make sure that you know everything's dialed in here in the next couple of weeks. We've got our shirts coming in.
Casey:Plug the fall classic it classic, it's the laurel highlands. 50k ran backwards on the course. So mile 31 to zero, a little bit different, a little. I, I don't know, rob, you think it's more challenging backwards than forwards?
Dann:I think it is, I don't know. It's a little less vert, a little less vert, it's not.
Casey:It's not much so it's a long descent that is is a long, long descent at mile 23. Yeah, I think it might be tougher in reverse then I think it's tough. You can have a climb.
Dann:At 25, too, you can have a nice climb, a sneaky climb, oh yeah.
Casey:Yeah, that's pretty steep too, the backside. Yeah, there's a little bit different. When I do go out to gate date, the coming back is a little bit faster, but that's after seven and a half miles, not 23 miles. So a little bit, a little bit different, but very cool. How do you two come up with that idea? The? I mean it seems pretty simple. We're just going to run the course backwards.
Jim:Right, well, you know. So we start in Ohio pile and then you finish in the middle of the woods, pennsylvania, right, there's something about this idea of finishing in Ohio pile, you're finishing in town, you're finishing in this area where people can congregate and just uh, be for a long period of time, grab a beer at the pub. So I think that's something that was really attractive to us. Was that idea of this almost festival finish line in this whitewater rafting town? It just made sense, right?
Rob:A hundred percent. I mean, it seems so obvious when you say it. But yeah, yeah, that's really what I want. I don't want to hop in a car and drive 40 minutes back to town. So, yeah, I definitely want to try this race. But finishing downtown ohio pile, with all the amenities there, the bar, the good food, yeah, I'm excited we got to do it, casey yeah, does.
Casey:Is there a relay for? Not this year not this year, okay, and does it finish at the the falls pub? Does it finish at the pub it does? They haven't quite agreed to let the line actually be in the in the pub it does.
Dann:They haven't quite agreed to let the line actually be in the in the pub, but we're gonna get it somewhere close, right at the bar. That would be perfect yeah, where it's, we'll have the kind of the festival area finish line area and food is going to be just right across the street from the pub and their pubs involved. They're going to be catering. So it's, it's going to be, it's going to be a good, good time, for sure.
Casey:Yeah, that's awesome. They have great food there. That's. That's one of the reasons I go. I mean, other than it's challenging but go out to run. You know, gate to eight is you start the pub and you end at the pub and you just walk right in afterwards and I I'm just gonna eat some quesadillas and have a couple beers right.
Dann:Have you seen the tap handle yet?
Dann:I don't believe I have, because I it wasn't there okay, I don't know it's, it's on rotation, it's the backup handle, so it's, it's the, it's the um, you know, it's the obelisk, it's the trophy for the 70 mile of wood and we turn it into a tap handle and uh, passed it off to the pub. So they, they usually put it on rotation when something's. You know, there's either an empty tap or they're bringing something that didn't have a handle with it. So it's pretty cool, that's cool, yeah that's so cool.
Casey:Dave bought in and explain real quick what the significance of of that is, because people aren't going to be familiar of why that is the trophy of of the race and I was told I'll let you explain it first. And I was told there's something you're supposed to do that I didn't do so it depends, yes, but yes, um, yeah, it's a um.
Dann:Every mile of the trail is is marked with a concrete obelisk. It's got, you know, it's got the just in the middle of the woods and you're cruising along and there it is each mile. So it's a pretty cool, some people would say encouraging, some people would say vicious reminder of your elapsed distance while you're running down the trail. But yeah, it's pretty cool. And the new trophies now are made by Jim's dad, which is awesome.
Casey:He's a master woodworker, so that's been a really cool way to bring in some people around us as well. So sweet yeah. That's just another cool thing about the race, and mariana uh grudziak, former guest of the show, informed me during the 50k that you're actually supposed to touch every obelisk as you run by it. I did not know that, which is probably why I face-planted it, yeah.
Dann:That's some bad juju. So when I started on the trail.
Jim:Let's see back in 2000,. I was leading backpacking trips on the trail and I was hiking, you know, with trekking poles and a big you know 50, 60-pound pack, and every single time I would pass a mile marker, I would use my trekking pole to, you know, tink, you know, just touch the mile marker. And I can still still hear that sound every single time I pass a mile marker. Just little tink, you know yeah, I didn't.
Casey:I didn't tink enough.
Dann:Apparently I've learned my lesson yeah, late in the race, it, race it's. It takes a little, a little bit extra. I love to bend the knee just a little more to reach down. You know, some of them are actually fairly easy to get out there and good, good spot on the trail. Some, some take a little bit of a little work for sure.
Casey:Yeah, yeah, there's a couple that you gotta yeah, you gotta maneuver a little bit and and get to, but yeah, well worth doing. That Brings you good juju out on the trail for sure. So, yeah, make sure when you're out there running gate to eight, whatever you're doing on the Laurel Highlands Trail, you tink the obelisk, the concrete obelisk. Another big thing and I've always kind of been curious of how you handle this for an ultra, that you like the distance because you're covering. It's a point to point. It's not a looped race. There's not just, you know, an aid station that you need to have out on the other side of the ridge or whatever. You have aid stations for 70 miles. How, what does the organization of that look like? Just the aid stations. How do you logistically handle all that? Because it seems to me, as someone in planning and finding solutions, that that would be probably the toughest thing to do in a race like that.
Dann:Yeah, I can start, jim. You know, it's just, it's a ton of communication. Cell service isn't great in a lot of these places, radio service isn't great over at that distance, and so it's really just. It's just, it's a ton of communication. Cell service isn't great in a lot of these places, radio service isn't great over at that distance, and so it's really just. It's that. That communication ahead of time, you know, sets you up really well for race day. So these we we have eight station captains at.
Dann:I think we currently have six of our eight spots that are full and you know, have been an aid station captain for years and years. We've we've brought in a couple new people, since some some of the older uh captains uh retired, if you will. But it's really just making sure they're there when they need to be there. They're always there early, it doesn't matter. And then just making sure that, like you know, one of the interesting things we've, we've grown in size a little bit.
Dann:Um, in the last couple years we've been able to allow a handful more people on the trail and that brings with it its own, you know, challenges as far as parking and space and lots and things like that. So it's just keeping an eye on those things as you grow a little bit. But yeah, it's, it's a lot. I mean it's it's everybody having all their stuff and being prepped and ready to roll to your own location on race morning. There's no morning meeting, um, because people are going to be an hour and a half, two hours away from each other at any given point during the day, um, and then it's just kind of like we're we're establishing chase vehicles that are coming up behind for drop bags and DNF racers, we're establishing people out in front that are double checking timing, and so it's, it's a, it's a constant. You know leapfrog, would say is actually a good word for it throughout the day.
Jim:You know, and we stepped into a race where people were already so excited about this race People were already bought in. You know, there were people invested in these aid stations for years and years and years. There was a husband and wife that just kept showing up for years and years. There's a cross country coach who brings his cross country team out to run an aid station. Now, granted, he's run the Laurel Ultra, he's won the Laurel Ultra, so he's invested, but he's bringing these college kids out. It's sharing with the next generation of runners. You know what it looks like to support other racers out in the middle of the woods Pennsylvania it's amazing.
Casey:That's. That's really cool that you have a and he's a college coach. Yeah, st Vincent, st Vincent's.
Rob:St Vincent Yep Exactly.
Dann:There's some local legend, with Andy as well, that he holds the fastest time from gate to 19, also during a race. So I don't know it's. It's something insane, like just over two hours or something. It's absolutely wild, but it's fun. It's fun to have those people around for sure and to say we could probably do a whole nother episode on, just the backend stories about the race. You know from the that we've picked up on, that we've learned just over the last five years are really cool.
Jim:Yeah, the legend and the lore Absolutely.
Casey:Yeah for sure, Because that alone, right, there is such a cool story. You're essentially exposing the next group, which cross-country runners are. You know what we would like to see go into ultras. You're essentially exposing the next group to this sport. How long has he been an aid station captain?
Dann:At least probably a decade. A decade, if not more. But yeah, I mean, he's been. He's been running the race for a lot longer than that as well, on the relay and individually, but where's his? Aid station 19, aid station 2 for this, for the 70 and for both right next to the old cemetery.
Casey:So we, we got the aid station. I didn't even think about like floor sweeping because that's a big deal. I I do my best because we do have. We have a bunch. I live in right next to national park and we do have a bunch of races and I do. I go out there and I'll pick stuff up after a race comes. Like we just had the marathon go through our towpath, which is like a rails, a trail type type trail, and there was yeah, there was goo packets that I picked up. I try and do my best to help, but that's something very important to the cause, right, dan and Jim.
Dann:Yeah, it's twofold. It's the logistics and the people you know, as far as like actual aid stations themselves and drop bags and DNF racers, and then there's actual sweeping of the, the trail literally, you know, and making sure that everything's picked up and the last racers have made it all the way off the trail and everybody's safe. Tim he went, one of our you know our past race directors. He's he has swept, I think every year since we've had we've been race directing, which is awesome. He's been one of our sweepers for the 70 every year and mile 39, for those of you who have done the 70 and come across that, that's been Rick Freeman, one of the other past co-race directors. He's been running that aid station for the past five years and then sweeping to the finish often.
Dann:So it's been fun. It's been fun to have them involved. Yeah, people usually are pretty awesome. We definitely find a handful of trash and I feel like the majority of stuff we find on the trail is was probably already there before event weekend. It's often, you know, water bottles and things like that, even more than gel tabs and things like that. So it's been, it's been pretty great on on all of our races.
Casey:Yeah, and I and I know you know the local RDS, they do their best to clean it up and it might not even be from the race when I, when I see it, so but I just I try and help out as best I can.
Rob:yeah I think most of the time there's trash left by mistake. I mean, racers do care, they don't want to drop, drop anything. I know you know some of the runs I've had. You have that goo packet that's in your pocket, the used one, and then you reach down and it's not there. And then you stop and you're looking for it.
Casey:You're like, oh, no, and Rob, that's that's exactly why I do it, because I'm sure that I've accidentally dropped stuff before, like did not mean to, didn't see it come out Like it just happens, like I know. So it's not a not a big deal, but core sweeping another logistical thing that you have to think about, go through and provide the service of yeah, making sure. I'm sure you have some stories of picking people up, because I live a mile from two 100-mile races. I have stories of picking people up, lost, a little bit wandering lost a little bit wandering.
Dann:Yeah, a whole, not a whole nother. Podcast of traumatic race events, race, race. Stories of things that happen on the back side of the setup.
Casey:Yeah, you found them where. Yeah, we have a. We have a cornfield locally that's a popular gathering spot for the, the lost wanderers.
Dann:So there is, there is a uh, a moment of like, of, of release, when you are able to like, especially on a marked course or, let's say, a looped course, where racers get through and they show back up at the aid station. You know, after the first loop, and you're just like, all right, we're good, we're good, you know, like everything's working as planned. You know, yeah, there's, and then there's just always pilot error. I mean always, no matter what you do. We've run tests in the woods, you know, yeah, and then there's just always pilot error. I mean always, no matter what you do. We've run tests in the woods where you know you have somebody. That's a spot where we're getting reports that people are taking the wrong turn, and we'll send somebody out to check the marking and they will set it up, or they'll just watch it. They'll hide in the woods and most people make the right thing, and then you'll step out next to the arrow and immediately when people see somebody, they're like which way do I go? You know, and they just like, they turn their brain off and they, you know.
Dann:So it's really interesting to watch people's their process in those moments, or just watching somebody. You know, it's always. I feel like I would say 90% of the time it's groups of people or pairs of people that get lost because they're chit-chatting, and just, I've done it. You know, you're just like talking and you just right through it. You know you're always on like a downhill, nice gravel or something. It's a single track uphill, turn off, and you just you know so I was gonna, yeah, I was just gonna say it's, it's usually monkey.
Casey:See, monkey, do they're just kind of well. I've been the leader of that before, where I've just that's right, yeah, so I can't throw a stone at that glass house, but yeah. Yes, it's it's part of it's. Hey, it's part of the game, though it's part of the you know, you just might be have to send out a reconnaissance team to track someone down in the you know forest of Pennsylvania.
Rob:What I want to know is are there any newbies that first climb at Laurel that have changed their mind and they're just hanging out and they want to come back down. Does that ever?
Jim:happen. You know, we try really hard to let people know to pace themselves on that first climb, and so that's a really important aid station. You know, when people hit mile 11, they're shedding layers, they are just completely boggled of what they're experiencing. You know, uh, for a lot of people it's their first ultra and that's a heck of a climb for your first time in the woods.
Dann:But we try we try and tell them. I see that more in triathlons if people hit the water and get about 20 feet out and they turn around and come back. But we haven't. We honestly haven't had it much in the woods, and most of the time when people point a direction on the trail, they go as far as they can until they can't go anymore yeah, your race in particular.
Casey:Maybe it's because I'm also with you know I'm with relays and how I just kind of hobby jog out of there. I'm definitely not going to hurt myself in the first 10 miles of any race, but the carnage I see on top of that first hill is legendary. Grant John and I were kind of near each other. We saw some just spectacular explosions on top of that first and second last year.
Dann:So yeah, we need to be a part of the documentary, that's for sure.
Casey:Just somebody posted up right there yeah, I mean be a good, good action spot, good, good spot for the camera for sure. So, yeah, and I'm looking forward to hearing how the backwards down that first climb goes. Because, yeah, that's when we were out there with Will Will Walmsley, also frequent, sometimes co-host, sometimes guest of the show I was like I think it was right when you had just announced that you were going to do it backwards, or maybe you told us something Somehow. I knew it and I was like, well, what do you think about going down this hill after you know 29 miles or whatever it's going to be? A might need a safety harness out there.
Jim:Well, just wait for the out and back when it's the full 140 from Ohio pile to Ohio pile.
Casey:Oh, is that a.
Jim:I am just down the road Do we have an announcement here.
Rob:Do we have an announcement?
Dann:So here's the I got you, jim, I got you.
Rob:This is awesome.
Dann:Yeah, I mean the official announcement is that the Fall Classic is meant to be a unique experience on the laurel highlands trail every fall. So starting off the 50k really made sense. It was kind of uh, you know, just just a, a fairly easy one to plug in the distance is there, the parking lots are there to start, you know. So it was, it made sense and it was very attainable. Um, um, it was also um, you know, it was easy for the park to to hear the idea and extend themselves a little further than what they've done for the past 45 years. So so that was that's. That was the initial pitch to them.
Dann:But the overall view of the Falkland Classic is to make it a unique opportunity because we're not changing, we're not changing the spring right, it's going to be the 50K and it's going to be the 70 mile, it's going to be the relays for as long as we can do it, but the fall will be really cool to start looking at some creative options on the trail. So maybe we should have a survey for that on how many different ideas we can pull together on that trail and what we can do with it. So, steer, wheels, spinning.
Casey:That'd be awesome. That'd be so cool.
Dann:Yeah, there definitely has been lots of requests specifically for the 140.
Casey:Really, Really People have that's man, that'd be. I can't, I don't know, that's a little bit.
Dann:Yeah, you want to talk about mile 136. When you get to Bidwell Road and you're headed back into Ohio Pile, then that last descent is going to be a whole different thing.
Rob:Right.
Dann:It's not 29. It's 138.
Casey:Rob, we got an exclusive.
Rob:That's awesome. Yeah, I'm just processing it in my head right now, right, yeah. Chew on it a little go back and go down that hill to. My legs are toast gate to 70.
Dann:I think it's called right yeah, gate to 70.
Casey:Just put gate 70 and back that's okay to 70 it rolls off the time. Yeah, that's, that would be awesome, that'd be, that'd be. So, yeah, it'd be a crazy and it'd be really cool to see. I will volunteer for that race. I will not be running that race.
Dann:Sounds great. It's also going to be an ultra in its own right volunteering for that.
Casey:Yeah, hopefully anyone that's listening to this. If you want to go experience an awesome ultra this fall maybe got injured or something could do what your A race was. Definitely check out the fall classic at ohio well, I guess it ends at ohio pile but the laurel highlands trail, I'm gonna be in florida, unfortunately, because I would really like to see it. I wasn't gonna, definitely wasn't gonna run it this year. I can't, but I would have liked to have been a part of it. But next year I'm definitely gonna put it on things to do we're bringing a.
Dann:We've used live survey at the finish line at some point, you know, just like right on site, hobby jogger, hobby jogger.
Casey:Uh, live interviews, yeah I, I, I think we can make that. Can we make? We want to do a live show, rob, and we need to figure out how to do it. I think, don't we. Is that what we're working on, the audio?
Rob:Yeah, we need to. We've got time. We'll make Laurel the first one. The spring or the fall, whichever one they'll, let us do it at.
Dann:Sounds like another exclusive just got dropped. That was it.
Casey:Yeah, there's a couple characters I'd like to talk to out there for sure.
Rob:Well, you say it on the podcast. It's written in blood, so now we have to do it.
Casey:Thanks again so much for your time here at the Hobby Jogger. We certainly appreciate it.
Dann:Yeah, well, you can find more information on Instagram, at at Laurel Ultra, or also on our website at redpointproductionscom. And this year will be on October 19th. That was fun. Thanks a lot, guys.