The Hobby Jogger Podcast
E11 | Jim Walmsley on Ultra-Running, Gear Innovations, and Cross Training
Join us as we sit down with ultrarunning champion Jim Walmsley to recount his breathtaking victory in France's Ultra-Trail du Mont-Blanc, his unique wedding anniversary that would make any Star Wars fan green with envy, and the scoop on Jim's strategic race kit evolutions to tackle grueling ultra marathon distances.
Wil Walmsley, friend of the show and twin brother to Jim, joins the conversation as co-host to explore the synergies between ultra-running, ski mountaineering, and cycling. And, because no May the 4th celebration would be complete without settling galactic scores, Jim weighs in on the epic Star Wars debate—did Han shoot first?
Join us as we sit down with ultrarunning champion Jim Walmsley to recount his breathtaking victory in France's Ultra-Trail du Mont-Blanc, his unique wedding anniversary that would make any Star Wars fan green with envy, and the scoop on Jim's strategic race kit evolutions to tackle grueling ultra marathon distances.
Wil Walmsley, friend of the show and twin brother to Jim, joins the conversation as co-host to explore the synergies between ultra-running, ski mountaineering, and cycling. And, because no May the 4th celebration would be complete without settling galactic scores, Jim weighs in on the epic Star Wars debate—did Han shoot first?
Lando. Yes, I have a dog named Lando Star Wars. Theme you ready, will, jim? This was supposed to be entirely about Star Wars, while at the same time simultaneously being running.
Jim Walmsley:Yeah, I think you guys are going to. If you throw me any bones on Star Wars questions, I don't even think I'm going to get them. I think Will was trying to prep my baseline Star Wars knowledge and I failed that miserably.
Casey Koza:When I had this idea I was like I just want to do a full Star Wars episode because I thought you were a big Star Wars guy, like Will is. And then Will was like actually Kim might be second place in Star Wars knowledge in this family.
Jim Walmsley:Kim might be second place in Star Wars knowledge in this family. I skipped the knowledge on it and just, we had a wedding on May 4th, just because we wanted a little Star Wars theme and we thought it was cool, the droids there's R2-D2.
Wil Walmsley:What's the other droid's name? The golden one, cp3. Yeah.
Jim Walmsley:I would have gotten CP3-0. Yeah, maybe not too many Star Wars questions.
Casey Koza:All right, so quick introduction, then we'll get into whatever it is we're going to discuss Not as much Star Wars, but are you ready, Will? Oh yeah, Thank you for joining this week's episode of the Hobby Jogger Back with me. As a co-host I have my good friend, Mr Will Walmsley. Will, how are you doing?
Wil Walmsley:today. Oh, it's been a busy day just running around taking the kids to soccer dance, but doing much better now Able to finally relax back home and looking forward to this episode.
Casey Koza:I know we're audio only, but your hair is not looking nearly as good as it was when we went on Top of the League podcast last week.
Wil Walmsley:Yeah, that one I had to make a point of, you know, being a back with rugby.
Casey Koza:Backs are known for having great hair, so I felt like there was a standard I had to meet. We did a good job, I thought. Top of the league podcast, Heck of a rugby podcast. Shout out to those guys. Thanks for having us on. Well Will, today is our May the 4th episode, a very special episode. We have on today someone you know very well.
Wil Walmsley:Yeah, probably someone I went to high school with.
Casey Koza:I think you guys went to high school together he's a four-time Western States winner, three-time, three-time, three-time Western States winner. That'll get edited, don't worry. First American male to win UTMB. He is coming off of a victory at Nice 100K over in Nice, italy, 115k, 115k. My apologies.
Jim Walmsley:It's somewhere in between, but it's also in France. That's maybe more important.
Casey Koza:Also in France. We'll just completely redo this opening, mr Jim Wamsley. How are you, jim?
Jim Walmsley:I'm doing good. Thanks for having me. Kind of fun to be here.
Casey Koza:Yeah, dude. Thanks for coming on. We appreciate it Will. Thanks for doing the booking for this.
Wil Walmsley:You know, had some blackmail, so able to get them on.
Jim Walmsley:Seemed to work.
Casey Koza:And, like I mentioned, this is the May, the 4th episode. Very special day in your house, jim.
Jim Walmsley:Yep. So Jess and I are celebrating our second anniversary of getting married, and I think that was less than well, maybe two weeks before we moved to France yeah, two years ago, so already.
Casey Koza:Nice.
Jim Walmsley:Well congratulations.
Casey Koza:Two years two years longer than I've been married, so hats off to you for that thanks, yeah, she'll be pleasantly surprised when she listens glad to have her as a listener now. How did you meet jess jim?
Jim Walmsley:uh, we met at the north space 50 mile. Um, both of us ended up going to that race, I guess in 2016, I think, is where we met. And then we hung out a few more times, convinced her to come to arizona two, three, four months later a couple times. Kind of started dating then. So 2016, at the north face, yeah, both of us went but neither one of us raced, and we ended up meeting uh at the race through mutual friend and then hanging out a little bit afterwards did she go and volunteer at western states 2016?
Jim Walmsley:yes. So, uh, I guess, after maybe we'd been together for two, three years or something, she finally brought up, you know, like that wasn't the first time we met in San Francisco. Actually, the first time we met, I was at a aid station at Forest Hill when you ran through in 2016. She says she gave me a coke and I said thanks. And then, uh, I said that, uh, some lady tried to offer me a coke and I said said, no way, lady, see you in Auburn. So, yeah, a difference on the Coke if I accepted it or not. But yeah, I don't think I did, and the rest is history.
Wil Walmsley:Yeah, I remember when I first met her because I was crewing for you at Western States, the same race in 2019. I remember her talking about the reaction. Reaction because she was there trying to support a different runner in 2016, probably the first and only race where she has not been rooting for Jim.
Casey Koza:And that's a big thing I've seen is couples and the support that they have for each other. And I know you know, jim. Obviously you're at a much different level than I am when it comes to running, but it's helped so much having Annie there in my corner. I know Annie helped Will as well. That's got to be partially attributed to your success. I would imagine having Jess there constantly with you.
Jim Walmsley:Yeah, for sure that you can only convince your best friends, your spouses, your girlfriend, boyfriend or your immediate family to come help you out, and you typically don't share the information of how long they'll be out there for. But just like, wait right here, hold this bottle. I'll be back in a little bit, seven hours later. Yes, the bottle's there. Thank you so much.
Wil Walmsley:So what you're saying is crewing at someone's 100-mile race is not a good first date.
Jim Walmsley:It's probably not the best first date. Yeah, at the first date maybe you could help a mutual friend and then you can try to pick up someone on the sideline.
Casey Koza:I would advise anyone to maybe wait a couple of years before you ask a significant other to.
Jim Walmsley:Well, I think Jess was. Uh, jess was definitely helping out less than a year in Uh, I roped her in, I think, Western States 2017, the following summer, so six, seven months later yeah, it was about the first time she started crewing some stuff.
Casey Koza:She had exposure to the sport and understood.
Jim Walmsley:Yeah yeah. So she comes from a running background and was getting in from I guess only like a year, maybe two years earlier she started running and she set out to do her first marathon at CIM and then that evolved into doing some trail running stuff with her local running club and them talking her into doing like some 50 Ks, and then I think she did one 50 mile before we met.
Casey Koza:Seeing her at OCC was actually my first taste of like elite trail running and seeing it. What I had seen was the end of the Buckeye 50K where it's me, you know, walking for the last 10 miles. But that was like my first glimpse. Seeing Jess coming down the last mega bomb, whatever last year and so she was Jess was like my introduction to high-end trail running and that was kind of kind of what got me hooked to it was I was in awe, like here's this girl. I just briefly met her, your, your wife and just bombing down this hill faster than I could have if I was just to start at the top. They took the ski lift up and and came down, so she was at the time the most impressive thing I had seen is her finish at OCC.
Jim Walmsley:Yeah, occ is about 55K and I think the top men are maybe around five hours and the top women are six or six and a half. And Jess is kind of pretty close to that six and a half seven-hour mark. So she's definitely ripping down the last downhill there. Uh, I would say I'm sure her splits down while flagell are significantly faster than my splits at the end of utmb coming down. It's a pretty brutal descent. How long is that descent? I mean it's probably 2,500 foot drop minimum but you do it in probably four miles. Yeah, but at the end of whichever race you're coming off of, I think most everybody does that descent.
Casey Koza:So when you're coming down that descent, does the crowd, how much does the crowd there, help you out? Like you're coming down something like that, because it's a lot different than what I see, a lot different than I imagine. I'll get to see western states, but the crowd over there seemed pretty intense from start to go, except for maybe the nighttime part, because I didn't see that I was actually getting some sleep yeah, like casey, you and I tried going up la flagelle.
Wil Walmsley:I think we got maybe two or three miles up and there were still people all along the course. Everybody had to hike up there, like you have to start at the very bottom, like that part to me what was insane scene I think, uh, you can actually take a chairlift up to the top too.
Jim Walmsley:You could have skipped the the hike you would have known that so there's a lot of people up at the top and there's a refusion stuff. So typically there's at least like a couple hundred, if not over a thousand people at the top of the climb.
Casey Koza:And there's a bar halfway up.
Jim Walmsley:And there's one at the top too. Yeah, yeah, both halfway and all the way up, so choose which one.
Wil Walmsley:Yeah, the cafe People are just having lunch under like rainbow umbrellas and the whole race biggest race in trail racing in the world is going on.
Jim Walmsley:Yeah, there is a, yeah, the refuge halfway actually, um, the trail just splits right through the middle of it too. So sometimes you gotta give someone, uh, with a bunch of drinks on a platter, a little heads up as you're coming through. Uh, most years that I've done that, uh, they didn't need to react much. Uh, last year it was a little bit different and actually had a little momentum.
Casey Koza:Yeah, you were carrying a good deal of momentum this year. I felt we'd like to talk a little bit more about what went different for you this past year. But first let's step back and describe UTMB. For anyone listening that isn't already familiar Will take it away.
Wil Walmsley:Oh, utmb, it is the mecca of ultra-trail running. It's 106 miles. Starts in Chamonix, france. They will run starting at 6 pm on Friday. They start running counterclockwise through Italy, switzerland and then finishing back in Chaumani. Yeah, it's the biggest in the world. They're going around Mont Blanc, which is the tallest peak in the Swiss Alps, french Swiss Alps. There it's unlike anything you get here in the US, I believe. The start line is about 2,500 to 3,000 people to start a UTMB. The amount of leads you're probably running 50 to 100 deep on both the men's and women's sides. So it's one of the deepest fields that they have in the world. The race experience itself is really, really cool because they've got different distances. That start happening Monday, I believe, is the PTL partner race. That's like 180 miles, I think Takes two, three days for people to finish and then they have shorter races OCC, 50k, 55k, ccc is 100K. Those are all starting different days. It's all leading up to the penultimate UTMB, the 106-mile race. That is the creme de la creme of all these championship races. Well done.
Casey Koza:Will. I appreciate that You're welcome. Will and I were there to experience UTMB and see the race in 2022. And that's one thing I'd like to ask you about, Jim the difference in, maybe, things you switched up from the year we were there, Will and I other than not having to have us around you to this year. Was there any mental changes, any game planning changes?
Jim Walmsley:Yeah, there was a lot more to worry about with you guys out there running, running wild, like falling asleep on the lawn before the race and Will chasing down the train tracks in the wrong direction and getting yelled at by half of valor.
Wil Walmsley:scene like dude, you said he wouldn't bring that up police going after him just kidding.
Jim Walmsley:Uh, um, tactically I mean it was just kind of another year of trying in some ways. Um, I, I felt really really like I was really close to having that breakthrough the year before um, when I got fourth place and then even like at that point like felt I was pretty close to breaking through. Every time I'd ran like been there and kind of how preparation's gone. But sometimes the more work, the harder I try, the more I do. In between usually Western States and UTMB, typically it doesn't pay off the second round of 100 mile races. So when UTMB comes around, a lot of my best training blocks and the most fit I've ever been actually ended up kind of dissolving into the least successful day on race day. So a lot of it's having to really be experienced and patient and just trust that you've done enough. So, yeah, there was almost doing a little bit less last year to make sure that you don't overcook it before you get to the race.
Jim Walmsley:Um, and then, um, I I mean I had my, my kit really dialed um from what I was carrying to what I had in every single pocket, like now I have a system that I I still haven't changed and probably won't change for a long time and I'm getting packs like made by Hoka right now that have all the specific pockets where I want them and how I want to carry things. So it makes a big difference to have that system and kind of dialed in and in which layers are kind of your go-to layers to fight the weather conditions, whether it's rain or cold or some sort of combination. Utmb is kind of a night race so you've got to be ready to get a bit colder than most races.
Casey Koza:Jim, you mentioned you're helping design a new vest for Hoka, so a little bit of product design involved in that, which is, I think, pretty cool, but also new pair of shoes coming out that you've obviously had a little help in designing.
Jim Walmsley:Yeah, the Tectonics 3 will come out later this year, which basically I've had input on the Tectonics since it was a prototype before it ever got released. And then, yeah, I was a big pusher in the Tecton X2 upper change but kind of disappointed that the the foam didn't get a remake from the 1 to 2. But the Tecton X3 is a complete remake of the shoe. The shape and the mold will be a little similar but, uh, it'll have kind of a gator built in. Uh, it's gonna be the first trail shoe that hoka releases made of piba foam, so that kind of new super foam like cooked foam, uh, which just it's lighter, it's softer, it's more responsive, it's pretty sweet and then it's a full v-brim rubber on the bottom. Yeah, I think people will like it a lot. Uh, hopefully it's basically pretty much the exact same shoe I've been running in and yeah, it's been working pretty well I've been, I think will has a pair too.
Casey Koza:There's the Zinal 2s which have the collar, which I'm going to take credit for that, because when we were over there we were talking to I forget the gentleman's name, but he was one of the shoe engineers for, I believe, the Speedgoat I was like, hey, man, you guys should put collars on all these things. That's what the football shoes have now, it's what you guys should have on there. So I'm going to take credit for that.
Jim Walmsley:I always tell will that I don't actually deserve any of it, but take what I can get, the kudos I can get right. Yeah, I bet actually that's interesting to mention the football cleats. But more and more I bet they're playing on that astroturf where you have those little black rubber pellets and they get in your shoes left and right, I'm sure. So nobody wants that sort of stuff, whether you're running the trails or running your little laps on the football field. Yeah, it's annoying, it creates blisters.
Casey Koza:That's what I told him. I wish I remembered his name, but I was like the Adidas Predator has a collar to keep those things out. We running trails out here. I don't know I could go for it, but yeah, yeah, there's an all-two. I think that's my new favorite poca shoe is. Is this an all-two? It's a little bit more nimble. I don't feel like I have to pay as much attention to things because I have to pay.
Jim Walmsley:I fall down a lot, considerable amount, so I feel like I'm less folly in those shoes, which is yeah, you get more dexterity, probably more proprioception feel to the ground with this amount too, because it's not typical like higher stack height max foam that a lot of hokas will have. So it's something different. I use it a lot for little strava uphill segments because it's pretty light shoe as well. I think it's one of the only hoka shoes coming in well trail side that's coming in under 200 grams and like has a full sole of rubber and has the collar and it has a little collar, not as big of a collar as the the tectonics 3, that one like.
Jim Walmsley:I mean you can still get a rock to slip in this now if you truly tried, but it probably knocks out 80, and I've always said 80 is probably pretty good. But uh, the tectonics 3, um, it's a little harder to slip on because of it, but uh, it's 100 of rocks get knocked out like they're not getting in I, I, you did allow me to try them when you were here, so it was, uh, a brag point for me and I'll get to.
Casey Koza:Yeah, I had those on a year ago.
Jim Walmsley:Yeah, yeah, me too, that old thing.
Wil Walmsley:How many different products are you going and giving input on your attention to detail, like it's not just with the shoes On the vest? Back in December, when you know I was in Arizona for Christmas and visiting you and the rest of the family, you were talking about how the sewing it needs to be stitched a certain way. Which pouch needs to be on the outside of it versus the inside accessibility being able to reach, like thinking about every little detail.
Jim Walmsley:Yeah. So I mean, the vest is a really complicated piece. The shoes are pretty complicated. There's a lot of ways to do it Not, yeah, not a good way. I guess I'm kind of known also for, even within the company of Hoka, to all right, all the athletes have a race kit, and then Jim kind of shows up in something else that I didn't really ask about. But I'm like, look, it's functional for today, like why would I not wear this? And then more or less the response is like fair enough, yeah, it works a little better so, and then typically I can back it up a little bit, so everyone's happy essentially at the end of the day. So there's been a lot more in this offseason working with Hoka to kind of pre-plan what exactly I want to wear for Western States and what exactly I want to wear for UTMB. I'd say the kits for UTMB are a lot more complicated because you have bigger weather discrepancies in colder weather whereas hot weather whereas hot weather.
Wil Walmsley:Um, I want a white shirt and I'll like basically a shirt, shorts, hat, maybe, maybe different types of hats. Will the uh bucket hat?
Jim Walmsley:be returning this year. Um, I definitely have a bucket hat um, stocked and ready to go. I gotta see I I have a couple other hat ideas and and yeah, it just might be my own little modified hat.
Casey Koza:Pretty famous for the the the bucket hat, the Hoka bucket hat.
Jim Walmsley:Yeah, I might have to finish in it if I do.
Casey Koza:Yeah, my, uh. My girlfriend Annie made fun of me relentlessly for my bucket hat wearing pre pre Hoka bucket hat. So I had to be like this green ugly bucket hat that I wore everywhere and she hated that thing. All of a sudden I get a white Hoka bucket hat and it's cool and she wants one.
Wil Walmsley:Yes, I'm like who's laughing now?
Casey Koza:Yeah, it's just the hypocrisy of it.
Jim Walmsley:So I think it comes in maybe like 20 different colors now, but I don't think green is still one of them, so it might have been just a green hat, to be honest.
Casey Koza:That's true. I never thought. Maybe I look terrible in green. I don't know. That's a good point. I have to ask her get her input on why she hated the green bucket hat so bad, but is thrilled about the white polka bucket hat which. I like, so she likes it, I like it, everyone's happy.
Wil Walmsley:You're talking about the kit for UTMB being a lot more complicated than Western States. I know when you lived in France. You're doing Schemo, so ski mountaineeering, putting the skis on. How much did you take from that practice learning, uh, adjusting your kit for that and applying it to running?
Jim Walmsley:okay. So the european triathletes typically uh, many of them compete in skimo during the winter. So ski mountaineering it's a uphill, downhill sport of all self-propelled. They wear these onesie Lycra skin suits with these zippers and pockets everywhere hidden on it and these technical backpacks and they go uphill with helmets and downhill with helmets and stuff. So, comparatively, more or less the experience with that sport makes UTMB seem extremely simple and a lot less complicated. So, uh, it helps give UTMB a bit more perspective. I mean also, I've done UTMB five times now, so just the repetition of doing it five times, it gets more simple as well.
Casey Koza:So it's kind of put things in context that way now you talked about the euros and they, they in the off. Their off season pretty much consists of schema, correct?
Jim Walmsley:yeah, I mean, uh, most of them are looking forward to, once the snow drops on the ground, that they're getting the skis out and going for that and ditching the running shoes. Some of them will ski from november to april, probably the main seasons december through march, um, but there's different disciplines of skimo and probably the more like ultras, ultra trail runners will do kind of the, the longer skimo events and like ludo pomomeroy he's a French guy, he's doing, I mean last year and this year he did like a race every single weekend, uh, and they just have so many to choose from with within like 30 minutes or an hour, uh, pretty much wherever you live. Um, yeah, I guess he spends part-time up in Genevava and part-time in the mountains in france.
Jim Walmsley:So if he's in geneva, then maybe he's got a two-hour drive, such a cool guy he's definitely pretty badass and uh inspiring, because I think he's 48 right now, uh, and I think he just took another top 10 at utmb. He won utmb in 2016. He was one of hoka's first sponsored athletes ever um back in 2010, ish and so he's got a ton of like old school pitchers back in the day the beginning utmb, diagonal, defu, um and all sorts of other races and stuff Gotten to hang out and run with him quite a bit, so he's a lot of fun.
Wil Walmsley:Pretty sure his time 2023 at 48 was better than his winning time of 2016.
Jim Walmsley:Maybe, maybe we had good conditions, I don't know.
Wil Walmsley:Yeah, I think that it maybe was, and it gives me hope that, like hey, 48 is the new prime. Like I'm still years away from ever reaching my prime.
Jim Walmsley:Yeah, he still might be the outlier, not the norm, but who knows, it could be shifting that way.
Casey Koza:I feel like in ultra running it's certainly the bell curve of ultra running the top is at a higher age than certainly road running.
Wil Walmsley:Oh, how many times do you see the guy that's like 40 years old, just the last half of the race, the last 10, 20 miles, just passing by all the people in their 20s just passing by all the people in their 20s.
Jim Walmsley:I mean I think the sport in general goes to more of a true endurance sport as opposed to this youth quickness reaction stuff. Yeah, you can be fast, but sometimes, especially like even myself and my younger days of trail running the speed can kind of get you into trouble, whether you miss turns on the course, whether you go out too fast. How to use it is a blessing and a curse.
Casey Koza:So, uh, speed's not always your friend on a on a long race yeah, that's one thing will and I have talked about especially like the opening of a race, kind of like a chess game. It can end your day real quick.
Wil Walmsley:Can't really win in the opening as much as we like to joke about first mile needs to be your fastest mile well they.
Jim Walmsley:They used to say the first one over escarpment, which is the first climb of western states, like mile four or something. They used to say if you're the first one over escarpment, you'll never win. I did that a few times now, so they stopped saying that.
Casey Koza:And now exactly that was the first thing you had to prove wrong, wasn't it?
Jim Walmsley:yeah, maybe, and then uh, yeah, I, I don't know. I just think, uh, western states is like six hours shorter than utmb, so it's a bit more manageable in that regard.
Casey Koza:You can keep a bit more up tempo one thing I did want to ask you about, jim kind of not really with running, but cycling does, and I've seen you cycle a bit in training before. Do you take anything from cycling from the pros, from things you see them do or talking to any of them? Because I think when I talked to my pro cycling buddy he seemed to think that there was like a lot of comparisons that could be drawn between ultra running and in the cycling world a little bit.
Jim Walmsley:I mean so if, like, I came up in a track background, so mile 5k, 10k max, uh, sort of thing, and if you think about those events, it's like four minutes to 30 minutes sort of thing. And if you think about those events, it's like four minutes to 30 minutes sort of thing, or even 800, like a minute and a half, two minutes, but five minutes to 30 minutes is almost the same, like it's not much discrepancy in events.
Jim Walmsley:You know, like in time frame, cycling tends to be four to eight hours, so there's a lot more fueling going on with that I think, it was actually spectating cycling and just watching one time of some of the nutrition that they were passing back and forth or seeing which teams are sponsored by this or that, and that's how I discovered never second was actually just watching cycling on the TV and I was interested what Primo Roglic was getting handed to by Wout Van Aert and ended up being a Never Second gel, when I'd never heard of the brand at all. So that was a good little discovery, probably two and a half years ago, three years ago and then now this year I'm with them. So yeah, they're're definitely much, much more into the nutrition side of things. So I'd say like up to kind of a 10-hour event, how they train and recover, and yeah, they have a like almost 40 to 60 race days throughout the year quite a few and then, like theory-wise, they're it's not as much of an impact. Well, it's not an impact sport compared to running. So you get to see more purity of training, philosophy played out of how to train the body, whereas running.
Jim Walmsley:One of the hardest things about running is just kind of staying healthy enough to run. Like most people. Injuries pop up kind of left and right because it is an impact sport that's going to trigger stress, fractures, overusage, injuries, all sorts of things. So cycling is one of these things where you can look at hours and time training Ski, mountaineering, skimos, similar Nordic skiing, swimming.
Jim Walmsley:You're going to look a lot more at time-based training philosophies where running we get many times just too much caught up in distance and this and that, and once you kind of go in further and harder, ultra races, you need to look at more time-based, because time-based is going to be more relative to how hard of trails you're doing and how much vertical training you're doing, which is going to be a bit more strength training to get you ready for, uh, kind of enduring harder races. And then, yeah, I just enjoy being on the bike and cycling. Yeah, I mean indoors, outdoors and all sorts of cycling. Uh, I'm not the best cyclist but, uh, I definitely enjoy the sport and kind of wish I could do more and I have to focus a lot more of my energy on running, but uh, hopefully, um, as the years go by, I get to spend more and more time on the bike too.
Casey Koza:It's a good cross training. I feel like right.
Jim Walmsley:Yeah, For me. I find a really good benefit from training on a bike to crossing over for running.
Wil Walmsley:Yeah, You've even been doing a lot of uh training on a bike when you were going through some of that injury, just to maintain that fitness.
Jim Walmsley:I mean even some of the schemo too I think 2019, yeah, in general, um, I do a lot of my training based off the feel. I don't have a coach and I'm kind of putting my own twist on it and trying to just feel what is right at the right time. So I think I can gain that feeling in other sports as well that it's still beneficial and I'm still able to kind of feel that I'm getting that aerobic side of training that I need to get. But I'm also a pretty time-based athlete, which isn't as applicable to a lot of other people with busy schedules and work schedules and kids, because, yeah, you need a lot of time to run a lot of miles or bike a lot or ski a lot. So, yeah, I kind of hit it with a big blown object.
Casey Koza:Now you mentioned other sports. I have a theory. I've discussed this theory a bunch with your brother, hey Casey.
Wil Walmsley:I know exactly where you're going. Can I ask one question while we're still on topic of cycling? Absolutely Okay, I know exactly where you're going. Mentioned with cycling them being further ahead with nutrition. A couple of months ago, casey producer David and myself we were part of a study that measured salt content, or sweat plus salt content for being able to refuel that. What kind of metrics were they looking at for cycling, for endurance athletes? What do you think are some of those things during the race that'd be even more important than just hey, I'm replacing sodium, I'm getting enough calories?
Jim Walmsley:Yeah, it's pretty common to do salt sweat tests, uh in cycling as well. Um, I know, like real time glucose monitoring is uh banned in the sport Um, so that's not allowed. So that's probably pretty good information then, just like running, um, and maybe running in triathletes, or even perhaps a little ahead of the, the cyclists in this regard. But the lactic testing is probably kind of what's considered maybe the most cutting edge, uh, how to measure training while you're training and making sure you're in the right zones. But yeah, kind of some of that goes to just your inner feeling for pushing too hard or pushing hard enough, as well, how are they doing the lactate testing?
Jim Walmsley:uh, they'll do a prick in the finger or sometimes a prick in the ear I think I don't know. I've never done any of the testing. I yeah, I haven't done any salt tests, lactic tests. Lactic tests they'll do regularly, a couple times a week during their workouts, just to make sure that their workouts aren't too hard or too easy. I don't know. I'm a fan of the sport and follow things, so I know a bit about it, but I don't do it in practice, I guess.
Wil Walmsley:Is that something you would like to see? Start coming in running a lot more.
Jim Walmsley:It's already there. Yeah, like if you look at the track marathon world, the top athletes are for sure doing it. And even in the ultra world I mean, yeah, you saw Hayden Hawks doing a lot of data testing with some of his sponsors last year to prepare for western states. But with all the preparation you you do and all everything you try to get ready, um, still an ultra. A lot of stuff doesn't go how you think it will and, uh, you got to be pretty adaptable, no matter what, like there's there's a lot more changing in game plans and kind of just mental resiliency with it.
Wil Walmsley:Yeah, I was going to say 2022. Utmb saw killing Jornet look like getting finger pricked at most.
Jim Walmsley:Yeah, I think he was checking lactic, stuff.
Casey Koza:And that's not allowed in cycling. I think, Of glucose is it?
Jim Walmsley:The glucose monitoring. I don't see them doing lactic stuff, so I would imagine it's only allowed in training. But even the glucose monitoring is allowed in training. But those things aren't allowed during the race, which it seems pretty reasonable. If it involves a needle in fluids coming out, it kind of seems like a no-go. I think we can get on board with that.
Casey Koza:Yeah, I think that makes sense, especially in cycling with the issues they've had over a decade. So, yeah, that makes perfectly good sense why you wouldn't be able to pull out the needle and do that. Back to my theory. I have a theory I think it's a pretty good theory that footballers, soccer players, would make the best, I guess entrance, like entry into ultra running as far as collegiate athletes go and upper athletes, because the aerobic base and the athleticism compared to, say, just a cross-country runner yeah, like you can definitely get crossover sports um, I I think the best talent from the us is going to come from cross-country runner category soccer players are sometimes maybe too strong.
Jim Walmsley:Uh, in some ways um depends on the race and the profile and just their attributes. I I don't know. I I think there's a argument for it, but there seems to be a lack of evidence. I would say I can't think of any top level soccer players former soccer players, that have made a big impact in ultra trail running well, my theory sucks. I've just found out yeah, I'm not following the theory right now. I'm I'm skeptical I.
Wil Walmsley:I think it just requires a level of mental fortitude, being able to compete, just that competitive inner driving, whether it's soccer or a different endurance sport, because you see a lot of people from ski backgrounds as well that are competing, competitive, pushing themselves, really just being able to dig deep. I think there's a lot more of that dig deep.
Jim Walmsley:I think there's a lot more of that. Skiers and mountain bikers or even motocross sort of athletes they tend to have a vision for trail running. When they're going downhill that's really special. I mean, they're used to seeing things much, much faster. So when you're going really, really fast, trail running it's still pretty easy. Um, so I always find that vision uh a really good superpower in trail running. Um, you do need more strength in in trail ultra. That crossover athletes tend to do pretty well. A lot of nordic skiers, I think, have kind of crossed over a bit scott durek, gordon de walter I always read that they have an insanely high bo2 maxes.
Jim Walmsley:The cross-country skiers yeah, I think yeah, david sinclair as well. Um, it tends to be a full body workout. So I think, um, yeah, you're just getting a bit more of that athleticism. And then it's another time-based sport. So, being in a time-based sport, they're, they're getting in a lot more hours of aerobic training than than a cross-country runner.
Jim Walmsley:More than likely, your, your best bet will be some sort of running background. I think overwhelmingly, the evidence is there because you're going from shorter running to longer running and it's an easier transition for, for just in general, what people like, where people from other sports have to rediscover, and sometimes at a later age, for good and bad, to like discover ultra trail, whereas runners kind of at least already know that they, they love running. So you're just trying something a bit further. Um, but then there's a different kind of mentality process and you could even call it another crossover sport of through hiking into ultra trail is a really cool crossover. I like analyzing some of them coming over and because they typically look at things in miles per hour and consistent paces, so they tend to be some of the best like, like strategic runners and ultra trail.
Casey Koza:That makes sense. They've got more time on feet than anyone yeah, depending on more than likely. Yeah, yeah, I mean those guys I know there's guys that do like laurel highlands trail. 70 miles take some. They knock it out in two or three days and that's a lot, of, a lot of time on feet over over two or three days.
Jim Walmsley:So that's I'm not a through hiker.
Casey Koza:I need a some some sort of bed water bar. Generally I can't just go three days in a tent and a Creek bath. I guess what about you Will.
Wil Walmsley:Uh, I, I prefer to get very good sleep. Yeah, I'm just thinking of how many times my kids wake me up in the middle of the night where I'm just like sleep is good. I like sleep, it's my friend.
Casey Koza:I am taking your brother that David's coming as well. We're going out to run the gate to eight. It's a second out in Pennsylvania, so it's straight up, straight down. Straight up, straight down for 15 miles. So we get a little taste of the mountains out there. A little bit different. Nice, short and sweet. Yeah, 15 miles. I don't know if that's short and sweet, but it's, uh, it's. It's a brutal, it's a little bit of brutal track out there. It's not.
Jim Walmsley:There's bears and coyotes you guys got to make the check sometime out to the white mountains up in new hampshire and there's some bigger mountains there yeah, we're.
Casey Koza:Uh, I have a. I have a trip scheduled. Uh will can't go. He has fatherly duties, I believe that we have uh yep dance competitions and recitals we're going out to right outside of killington vermont, me, grant and him david to run. I think it's the Bloodroot Ultra Doing the 10 mile. Nice little warm up for me.
Jim Walmsley:But then why do you get to call it the Bloodroot Ultra? You just get to call it the Bloodroot.
Casey Koza:Yeah, that's a good point. I didn't think of that Good point. I got to run my 5K Ultra Damn hobby jogger, don't call it Ultra Got it right there, yeah, so we're going to go out there. I'll get some mountains here over the course of the next month, which is rare for Now that you bring that up the Ohio miles. You were out here for some Ohio miles last summer.
Jim Walmsley:Yeah, I got some. You guys call them just by a thousand cuts or little paper cuts Hills in Ohio. What do we call them just by a thousand cuts or little paper cuts hills in Ohio? What?
Casey Koza:do we call them?
Wil Walmsley:We just call them punchy. We have very punchy hills.
Jim Walmsley:All right, I guess one could call it that. I got to experience the ups and downs of the trails there. They were nice. You guys got good trees, good tree coverage. We do have good trees, good tree coverage.
Casey Koza:We do have good trees.
Wil Walmsley:We don't get much of a tan, don't get much sun run on our trails, but it's good when it's hot out.
Jim Walmsley:Yeah, but right now I'm just lathering on sunscreen every day to go outside, because we don't have tree coverage at all and just getting blasted by the sun.
Wil Walmsley:Casey, if I recall correctly, that must have been the start of the training block for utmb, and I don't think it gets enough attention yeah, that's where it all began.
Jim Walmsley:I feel like it was that was he got some.
Casey Koza:Where'd we run buckeye trail home of the buckeye 50k?
Wil Walmsley:we did kendall lake, which is part of Burning River course, burning River, 100 miler.
Jim Walmsley:And I think, out of anyone, I was probably the one pumping the brakes, of saying like, no faster, no more, I'm good Because, yeah, I was coming off an injury with an ankle roll last year and I had to skip the World Trail Championships to try to be healthy enough to train and run UTMB. So, uh, yeah, ohio was the beginning of the block.
Casey Koza:Yeah, I remember that it was a good place to start, do you? How much credit do you give the Ohio trails for the UTMB win?
Jim Walmsley:Well, I mean, I'm running Western States, then I'm going out to hard rock to help Francois out there, and then I'm doing my oblig hard rock to help francois out there and then I'm doing my obligatory week in ohio before I, uh, go on and ship off to france to start training the rest of the utmb block there. No, I made that up, but, uh, maybe I should go to ohio for a week on my way to france was that jess? Yeah, I got a response. You're going to Ohio.
Casey Koza:Oh, I said hello.
Wil Walmsley:Casey and Will say hi, I thought she said no, you're not.
Jim Walmsley:She didn't say no, but it caught her a little off guard too.
Casey Koza:Well, I understand she has family here.
Jim Walmsley:Well she is. I understand she has family here. Yeah, Jess has aunts and cousins and her grandmother is out in Ohio. I think she's 93. 93. Good for her. Yeah, little old Italian lady Did you get to meet her when you guys, when Jess last came to visit back in 2020? Yeah, when we came and visited in 2020, we made out there to see a bunch of her relatives who she hadn't seen in 10 plus years. Yeah, ohio is not the easiest place to get to.
Casey Koza:Yeah, that's true. We do have an airport here in Ohio, a couple of them.
Jim Walmsley:I mean you go to Ohio from the West Coast. If you're going to Ohio, it's not like you just pass through Ohio.
Casey Koza:And your parents now are going to be part-time. Yeah, it looks like they're more.
Jim Walmsley:Wamsleys out in Ohio now. Yeah.
Casey Koza:Yeah, so that's pretty cool. You can see Joan and Harry. I imagine their primary reason Will is for the grandkids, correct?
Wil Walmsley:Yeah, to be near Jim's niece and nephew? Yeah, that would probably be it, but secondary reasons, probably better summer weather here Gets really hot in Phoenix.
Jim Walmsley:They're also deathly afraid of the winter in ohio, so they will not be there in the winter arizona winters are pretty nice. Uh, it's a pretty good deal out there phoenix winters I mean you and I, we get to compare winters a little bit, and flagstaff doesn't have it much. Uh, we have more sunny days, I think for sure, but besides that, definitely cold temperatures and lots of snow here too.
Wil Walmsley:Casey will definitely agree. It's got to be more sunny days. He was keeping a running tally of how many cloudy days without sun we had.
Casey Koza:at one point I went 10 days without seeing the sun.
Jim Walmsley:Yeah, we'll do that. When we were living in France in the Rache Valley, jess would keep track of how many days and I'd see the weather coming and it'd be like two weeks Like we're for sure not going to get the sun. But day one there was just oh, where's the sun, I can't do this. And it was like Jess, you can't complain today, like you got to wait like three, four days before you get to complain. It's got to go away before you start complaining.
Casey Koza:You got to, you can't do it on day one Pennsylvania, outside of Pittsburgh. So kind of similar weather, 10 gloomy days in a row Isn't a big deal. It is, but not that big, not that out of range. So yeah, I don't complain until at least five, five's, the five's, the complaint.
Wil Walmsley:But five is pretty reasonable. I feel like that's fair.
Casey Koza:Well, Jim, thank you so much for your time. I certainly appreciate you taking that time for us here at the Hobby. Jogger Will thank you as well. I appreciate it. And since this is the May, the 4th episode, we need at least one Star Wars question for you. Jim, who shot first, Han Solo or Greedo?
Jim Walmsley:Got to be Han Solo, gotta be Han.
Casey Koza:Solo, that's right. People who say Greedo don't know. And with that that is a wrap on this episode of the Hobby Jogger. Thanks again.